[Trade] Tkachuk (8 yrs x $9.5 mil) + `25 4th to FLA for Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt & `25 1st

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Do you know any 77 pt guys who are not on PP1?

Point is he didn’t score 77 pts playing next to Backlund. I just looked it up, Backlund had 2 pp points, compared to Tkachuks 24. Just trying to show there wasn’t a massive gap between Tkachuk and Backlunds point totals while playing together. Meaning Tkachuk didn’t carry that line, like say, Huberdeau or Gaudreau has.

[calgarywinning]

Backlund is going to look great on this line.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Point is he didn’t score 77 pts playing next to Backlund. I just looked it up, Backlund had 2 pp points, compared to Tkachuks 24. Just trying to show there wasn’t a massive gap between Tkachuk and Backlunds point totals while playing together. Meaning Tkachuk didn’t carry that line like say, Huberdeau or Gaudreau has.

That's not the point you're making, though.

The point you've made, is that it's easy to manipulate stats by moving goalposts around. No one scores 100% of their points with their linemates so that's essentially a moot point. Tkachuk drove the offense for that 3M line, period.

As for "carrying a line", that's such a misnomer:

In 2018-19, Matthew Tkachuk had:

16 goals
15 primary assists
9 secondary assists

in 1083:00 5v5 minutes. He spent 9% of that with John Gaudreau, and both Backlund and Tkachuk played almost exclusively with Frolik that year.

In 2021-22, Jonathan Huberdeau had:

17 goals
19 primary assists
14 secondary assists

In 1009:40

Huberdeau spent about 20% of 5v5 icetime with Aleksander Barkov, and last year was a higher-scoring year throughout the league. And one would argue the Panthers had more talent on the opposite wing as well, with guys like Duclair, Marchment, Reinhart available. I imagine the Panthers also had the higher-scoring blueline, from where that advantage in secondary assists (which are typically just noise) likely comes from.

I think Huberdeau is a fine player, but you have to compare apples-to-apples. A difference of nine 5v5 points in about one less game, four years apart, is virtually inconsequential. Huberdeau's scoring last year was inflated by special teams - he had 52 powerplay points and yet that team's powerplay was absolutely putrid in the playoffs. So saying that Tkachuk was "carried by PP1" and not noting the same about Huberdeau is absolutely strange. Never mind that Tkachuk and Backlund started most faceoff shifts in the defensive zone that year, while Huberdeau has been given soft usage.

As for Backlund? Yes, he was a good player too. And yes, without PP1 usage Tkachuk would not have scored 77. Just like Huberdeau would never have scored 115 last year if he was playing Mikael Backlund's role on PP2 for his team. But that would be strange usage, no?

[Camronius]

Originally Posted by getoverit

Man allot of posturing as to who is or was better. Time will tell, to me this year is going to be refreshing and have a whole new look. I welcome it!

This is kind of how I'm looking at it too. I keep thinking about how good both Lindholm and Hannafin have been for us AND at the same time Carolina has improved. The Hurricanes have proven to be a powerhouse without those two. There is something to be said about chemistry. Sometimes change is good - I didn't get the feeling our previous team makeup was going to get us a cup.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Camronius

This is kind of how I'm looking at it too. I keep thinking about how good both Lindholm and Hannafin have been for us AND at the same time Carolina has improved. The Hurricanes have proven to be a powerhouse without those two. There is something to be said about chemistry. Sometimes change is good - I didn't get the feeling our previous team makeup was going to get us a cup.

not from that trade considering they have nothing to show for it now

[Camronius]

Originally Posted by dino7c

not from that trade considering they have nothing to show for it now

well that's the point being made.. sometimes improvement happens just by moving pieces - even good ones. Johnny and Chucky out shuffles the deck regardless who stays and who goes afterwards.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by dino7c

not from that trade considering they have nothing to show for it now

Kind of crazy how a team can trade a 1C and top 4D they drafted top 5 and have nothing to show for it before those players are halfway through their second contracts and find a way to improve like they have. Peters must've really been holding them back lol. Doesn't hurt they have this ability to transform random depth Dmen into top 4 like clockwork year after year. Just a really well run team. Imagine if we traded Coranato, Zary and Wolf and ended up with nothing years later while they turned into studs? We'd be ####ed lol and Carolina lost higher quality guys with top 5 pedigree

[djsFlames]

Imagine putting this much effort into convincing people why we shouldn't be excited for Huberdeau and had underrated Tkachuk.

Siphoning joy from a recently hopeless fanbase is an interesting way to go about your business.

What else should we be wary about and not let ourselves enjoy?

Are these really battles worth fighting if you're a Flames fan?

[SuperMatt18]

I don’t really get why there is so much concern about who is better between Huberdeau and Tkachuk anyways. Florida better hope Tkachuk is better because they paid a huge premium on top of Huberdeau for that “upgrade”.

And Even if Tkachuk is better than Huberdeau the fact that it’s even close speaks to how good the deal is for the Flames because we got a top pairing dman, a 1st, and a decent prospect on top of that.

And in terms of production Huberdeau has 346 points to Tkachuks 285 going back to 18-19 season (21% more points), and 216 even strength points to Tkachuks 198 (9%) going back to 18-19.

So I don’t necessarily consider 20% more production overall, and 10% more production at 5v5 inconsequential. Tkachuk is the better defensive, and potentially overall player, but Huberdeau is more elite offensively for sure.

The Huberdeau-Barkov dynamic is interesting to me too…they are very similar to Toews & Kane in terms of what the advanced stats attributed to each of the forwards. And in that case the offensive playmaker seems to be aging a lot better than the 200ft Center did, at least production wise.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don’t really get why there is so much concern about who is better between Huberdeau and Tkachuk anyways. Florida better hope Tkachuk is better because they paid a huge premium on top of Huberdeau for that “upgrade”.

And Even if Tkachuk is better than Huberdeau the fact that it’s even close speaks to how good the deal is for the Flames because we got a top pairing dman, a 1st, and a decent prospect on top of that.

And in terms of production Huberdeau has 346 points to Tkachuks 285 going back to 18-19 season (21% more points), and 216 even strength points to Tkachuks 198 (9%) going back to 18-19.

So I don’t necessarily consider 20% more production overall, and 10% more production at 5v5 inconsequential. Tkachuk is the better defensive, and potentially overall player, but Huberdeau is more elite offensively for sure.

The Huberdeau-Barkov dynamic is interesting to me too…they are very similar to Toews & Kane in terms of what the advanced stats attributed to each of the forwards. And in that case the offensive playmaker seems to be aging a lot better than the 200ft Center did, at least production wise.

This times 1000

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Camronius

well that's the point being made.. sometimes improvement happens just by moving pieces - even good ones. Johnny and Chucky out shuffles the deck regardless who stays and who goes afterwards.

fair enough, I misunderstood what you were saying

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's not the point you're making, though.

The point you've made, is that it's easy to manipulate stats by moving goalposts around. No one scores 100% of their points with their linemates so that's essentially a moot point. Tkachuk drove the offense for that 3M line, period.

As for "carrying a line", that's such a misnomer:

In 2018-19, Matthew Tkachuk had:

16 goals
15 primary assists
9 secondary assists

in 1083:00 5v5 minutes. He spent 9% of that with John Gaudreau, and both Backlund and Tkachuk played almost exclusively with Frolik that year.

In 2021-22, Jonathan Huberdeau had:

17 goals
19 primary assists
14 secondary assists

In 1009:40

Huberdeau spent about 20% of 5v5 icetime with Aleksander Barkov, and last year was a higher-scoring year throughout the league. And one would argue the Panthers had more talent on the opposite wing as well, with guys like Duclair, Marchment, Reinhart available. I imagine the Panthers also had the higher-scoring blueline, from where that advantage in secondary assists (which are typically just noise) likely comes from.

I think Huberdeau is a fine player, but you have to compare apples-to-apples. A difference of nine 5v5 points in about one less game, four years apart, is virtually inconsequential. Huberdeau's scoring last year was inflated by special teams - he had 52 powerplay points and yet that team's powerplay was absolutely putrid in the playoffs. So saying that Tkachuk was "carried by PP1" and not noting the same about Huberdeau is absolutely strange. Never mind that Tkachuk and Backlund started most faceoff shifts in the defensive zone that year, while Huberdeau has been given soft usage.

As for Backlund? Yes, he was a good player too. And yes, without PP1 usage Tkachuk would not have scored 77. Just like Huberdeau would never have scored 115 last year if he was playing Mikael Backlund's role on PP2 for his team. But that would be strange usage, no?

So are we debating who got the better player or who got the better deal? I'll say one thing, if your only debate is a close call between Huberdeau and Tkachuk, then we absolutely fleeced Florida because Huberdeau came with many more important pieces.

You can look at points and stats all you want but I didn't like how Tkachuk played last year despite his 100 point season. And with his skating, he's going to look like a 38 year old when he's 28.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's not the point you're making, though.

The point you've made, is that it's easy to manipulate stats by moving goalposts around. No one scores 100% of their points with their linemates so that's essentially a moot point. Tkachuk drove the offense for that 3M line, period.

As for "carrying a line", that's such a misnomer:

In 2018-19, Matthew Tkachuk had:

16 goals
15 primary assists
9 secondary assists

in 1083:00 5v5 minutes. He spent 9% of that with John Gaudreau, and both Backlund and Tkachuk played almost exclusively with Frolik that year.

In 2021-22, Jonathan Huberdeau had:

17 goals
19 primary assists
14 secondary assists

In 1009:40

Huberdeau spent about 20% of 5v5 icetime with Aleksander Barkov, and last year was a higher-scoring year throughout the league. And one would argue the Panthers had more talent on the opposite wing as well, with guys like Duclair, Marchment, Reinhart available. I imagine the Panthers also had the higher-scoring blueline, from where that advantage in secondary assists (which are typically just noise) likely comes from.

I think Huberdeau is a fine player, but you have to compare apples-to-apples. A difference of nine 5v5 points in about one less game, four years apart, is virtually inconsequential. Huberdeau's scoring last year was inflated by special teams - he had 52 powerplay points and yet that team's powerplay was absolutely putrid in the playoffs. So saying that Tkachuk was "carried by PP1" and not noting the same about Huberdeau is absolutely strange. Never mind that Tkachuk and Backlund started most faceoff shifts in the defensive zone that year, while Huberdeau has been given soft usage.

As for Backlund? Yes, he was a good player too. And yes, without PP1 usage Tkachuk would not have scored 77. Just like Huberdeau would never have scored 115 last year if he was playing Mikael Backlund's role on PP2 for his team. But that would be strange usage, no?

Fair points, but I have no idea where you pulled 52 power play points for Huberdeau? He had 38. So, I don’t know if the rest of your numbers are accurate or not.
Explain one thing for me please. What measurement are you using to show Tkachuk drives the offense? I agree, Tkachuk is very good in the offensive zone, but I’m not sure what you mean exactly by, he drives the offense?

[Ryan Coke]

I like Tkachuk’s game and am not going to say he sucks now that he’s gone, but heading into this off season I definitely felt he was the third most important part of the top line. Gaudreau was the offensive catalyst, and Lindholm was the glue guy. I was worried about the dollars he was going to expect based on his career season with those 2.

I was hoping for a re-signed Gaudreau, then deal Tkachuk if there was something attractive.

Even if Gaudreau didn’t torpedo things on his end this deal would’ve still been awesome for the return the team got.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bax

42 goals
104 points
elite defensive metrics
draws more penalties than any other player

“Happy he’s gone”

Lol you must be hard to impress.

You can absolutely love the return and still acknowledge Tkachuk was a fantastic player for Calgary and will continue to be one for Florida

Hasn't done anything in the playoffs. Pissed off the Kings so much that they played every game against the Flames like it was their Stanley Cup. Had an embarrassing meltdown against the Leafs. Embarrassed the organization several times with his antics. Wasn't loved in the locker room. Worst of all he left the Flames because he didn't want to be a Flame or part of this city. I can can comfortably criticize him on his way out because nobody can say I've changed my tune about him as I never liked the guy. Great talent but extremely immature, lacking leadership skills, and could just never bring it in big games. Also he's a terrible skater. I'm not hoping for him to fail in Florida but I'm over the moon right now replacing him with a more mature player like Huberdeau that's embraced the team and city.

[SuperMatt18]

Funniest thing I’m seeing online right now is this narrative that Huberdeau and Weegar weren’t a big part of Florida’s success last year and were sheltered/carried by other players or that the team was already better without them.

I’m not quite sure how it would even be possible for them to be carried by other players considering they led the team in TOI and production metrics.

Total TOI
1) Weegar (1870 mins)
2) Huberdeau (1554 mins)

5v5 TOI

1) Weegar (1490 mins)
…
7) Huberdeau (1010 mins - 2nd among forwards)

Total Points - Forwards
1) Huberdeau - 115
2) Barkov - 88

Even Strength Points - Forwards
1)Huberdeau - 72
2) Barkov - 57

Total Points - Defense
1) Ekblad - 57
2) Weegar - 44

Even Strength Points - Defense
1) Weegar - 39 (T-9th in the NHL)
2) Forsling - 37

The Flames got 2 of the Panthers 4 best players in this trade (Barkov, Ekblad, Huberdeau, Weegar) …and it was a team that won the presidents trophy last season.

[devo22]

every now and then I still find myself in disbelief that Tre pulled this off. I liked the speculation phase the days prior and was fully expecting to be a bit let down by the return, and then Tre goes and does this. Still blows my mind.

[FiveSeven]

99 hockey IQ
95 puck protection
92 hands
90 shot
65 skating

Elite at somethings but clearly not how you’d like to build a player. 🤨
Dude would probably be the best overall player in the league if he wasn’t slow af.
Many times watching him I’d think he’s trolling with how slow he skated.

[Vinny01]

Reading the HF thread it has turned into the fanbases trashing on their former players to prop up the return for their team but there are a few sane people there calling this a win-win trade which I absolutely think it is. Really teams can only go all in around that $10M range with 3 forwards (Leafs are trying with 3). I would rank the Barkov-Tkachuk pairing as one of the absolute best of any team in the league when you factor in the age and the fact these 8 year deals are just kicking in.

Florida was nearing the decision point with 2 of its players. Huberdeau and Weegar were entering the last year of sweetheart contracts and both need extensions or enter the market. Florida jumped at the chance to acquire a 24 year old rare type of player because he became available. They could sign him from 24-32 for similar or even less money than they had to pay the guy turning 30. Similar with Weegar but he is 29 when his extension kicks in. They had to include an average prospect and a 1st to secure their core up front for the next 8 years. I think in that right it is a win for them.

The Flames are told their homegrown star player and best of their top 10 picks during the Treebuild is planning on leaving as soon as he can so it is a 1 year or trade him now scenario. He is really only interested in 5 or so teams so nearly 85% of the market is out of the running and it is rumored a couple of teams do not have the ability due to the cap. Because Florida sees something they want they make it happen by giving the Flames the 4th highest scoring player over the last 4 years, and a top pairing Dman who plays well at both ends of the ice. Because they have a year left each they also include a pick and a prospect. The Flames acted appropriately and signed the centerpiece of the deal to the same contract they offered the play making left wing who just bolted for Ohio. By all accounts the Flames likely make Weegar a long term core member of the team as well. They turn a limited market into 2 core pieces of the team and some futures.

I think this is the definition of a win-win trade. I wanted Tkachuk to be here for 8 years and wear the C but since that didn’t happen I am extremely pleased with the trade return and fully support the long term deal handed out to Huberdeau.

[Scornfire]

Tkachuk isn't close to an elite hockey IQ unless we're just ignoring all his throwaway plays where he wastes a posession because he can't be assed to lift his head