Huberdeau and Weegar Signing Discussion Thread

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If I had to guess I’d say treliving is very busy trying to get their’s and mangiapane’s contracts negotiated.

I’ve said it before that I think the fact that Huberdeau and weegar are coming off career years but going to a new team gives the flames some decent leverage given it’s a big gamble for both of them to assume they will match their production from last year in a new system. I think they will both do very well but the risk of injury is also a big factor, better to sign when you’re healthy than when you’re coming off a knee injury or concussion.

Weegar seems pretty stoked to play here so I imagine his will get done first but I think Huberdeau is just as likely to sign here with a team that wants to win. If the flames can get them both signed they are in really good shape going forward and with lots of contracts coming off the books over the next 2 seasons we will be able to keep players like lindholm when their deals are up and go after some free agents. So long as we can develop a few prospects to be everyday nhlers that can fill out the lineup there’s no reason to believe we can’t continue to be competitive if sutter sticks around after next season.

I can’t believe people are still going out of their way to find something wrong with this trade, it was nothing short of a coup given our bargaining position. Getting a player who was tied for second overall in scoring in exchange for a player that a team couldn’t possibly keep isn’t something that happens very often.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch. If you've decided Treliving is an idiot and was going to ride the team into the garbage - hard to admit you were wrong and this was a trade beyond even what our biased ideas of a good trade would have been before it was made. You can see the same 3-4 posters in every thread explaining why every move the Flames make is a mistake or going to blow up in their face.

[tvp2003]

I know people like to slam Treliving but I'm not going to fault him for negotiating this deal without having extensions for Weegar and Huberdeau in place. Both are still under contract for this season, and if I'm Florida's GM there is absolutely no way I'm letting another team talk to them about a potential trade/extension. The only time you would even put it on their radar is if they had a NTC and you need them to waive.

Can you imagine Zito making this call:

"Hey Jonathan, instead of making an offer for an 8-year extension I'm thinking about trading you to Calgary but in order to get max value I need you to give them a call and maybe see if you'll sign an extension with them? And if you say yes that would be great, because then we might not have to throw in your buddy Weegar in the trade as well."

As for Calgary, they had a small window to try and get a trade done with a very small number of teams. The fact they got a sign and trade done at all -- ignoring the massive return from Florida -- is solid work IMO. Sure there was a little luck involved (that Florida was able to meet Tkachuk's salary demands while also prepared to give up assets in trade) -- it could have easily gone sideways if one of those things did not happen.

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by Nelson

My concern is that the Flames enter the season without Huberdeau and/or Weegar extended, they are a playoff team or borderline playoff team, they do not trade Huberdeau and/or Weegar at the deadline, and they lose Huberdeau and/or Weegar for nothing. I just want to see the Flames avoid that by making an off-season deadline to re-sign them. The Flames need to get long-term assets for Tkachuk.

I just can't see anyway Treliving allows it come to that. Whatever your opinion of the GM may be, one thing I reckon that's hard too argue is that he learns from his mistakes. Huberdeau and/or Weegar will not turn into Gaudreau v2.0. If no progress is made on new deals come Sept/Oct I'd wager they will be dealt while their value is at a peak (and not potentially lowered should they struggle adapting to Darryl's system).

Can't see this getting as far as the TDL.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I know people like to slam Treliving but I'm not going to fault him for negotiating this deal without having extensions for Weegar and Huberdeau in place. Both are still under contract for this season, and if I'm Florida's GM there is absolutely no way I'm letting another team talk to them about a potential trade/extension. The only time you would even put it on their radar is if they had a NTC and you need them to waive.

Can you imagine Zito making this call:

"Hey Jonathan, instead of making an offer for an 8-year extension I'm thinking about trading you to Calgary but in order to get max value I need you to give them a call and maybe see if you'll sign an extension with them? And if you say yes that would be great, because then we might not have to throw in your buddy Weegar in the trade as well."

As for Calgary, they had a small window to try and get a trade done with a very small number of teams. The fact they got a sign and trade done at all -- ignoring the massive return from Florida -- is solid work IMO. Sure there was a little luck involved (that Florida was able to meet Tkachuk's salary demands while also prepared to give up assets in trade) -- it could have easily gone sideways if one of those things did not happen.

Yeah, I am really anxious about acquiring pending UFAs in their late 20s for a 24 year old star player that was intent on signing an extension with the acquiring team, but there is no way Florida would want to tip off their players that they are on the trade block if the other team might end up walking away after talking to them. That isn't a realistic expectation to put on a team as it could hurt the relationship between the player and their team.

[Enoch Root]

The idea that a team should reach out to the potential players in a trade, before pulling the trigger, is laughable. Think it through: almost any player approached about a trade is going to say no, unless they were already desiring a trade. (like Tkachuk)

It never rarely happens - for good reason.

[Lanny_McDonald]

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

[AustinL_NHL]

Never seen someone try so hard to discredit a GM that just pulled off the biggest trade of the cap era and returned an ungodly amount of value in a trade for a player who wanted out and had the team backed into the corner.

Lol

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

Due diligence is research on a trade subject. You are talking about negotiations for a final deal before a trade offer could be accepted. A trade offer which could be withdrawn at any time, in which case they are back to talking to the Blues about Tarasenko who is also a pending UFA, or Kyrou who is a pending RFA, or to the Devils about Bratt, who is an existing RFA.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Not if Florida grants them permission to speak to the players, which Calgary should have demanded so they could complete their due diligence. Calgary granted Florida access to Tkachuk so they could do their due diligence and give a bottom-line number and contract details for the sign and trade. Or do you think the Flames negotiated the terms of the Tkachuk deal and Florida just accepted whatever was in that deal?



Not accurate at all. Teams do this all the time especially when there are conditions attached to the player or the player is a big-ticket item. Players have a lot of control where they can play these days, so the smart teams are making sure they are not trading for someone else's problem. You think for a second that Buffalo wasn't 100% certain that both the players they were acquiring in the Eichel trade were not on board with Buffalo? They had that verified and sewn up before that deal was agreed to.



Why would that be? If I'm trading for a player who has a year left on his contract, and they are in the negotiating window (which both players are), so long as I have permission from the team holding that contract, I can ask the player whatever I want and negotiate just as the team who owns their rights. This is how teams can trade for a player then have a contract done almost immediately. They've talked and have agreed to terms prior to execution of the trade. Walsh was pissed with Florida because the conversation never took place.



The reality of the situation is the Flames didn't ask. Huberdeau's agent disclosed that. They could have asked and been given permission, but that never happened. It's disturbing that you seem to believe there is this huge cone of silence where teams can't get permission to have conversations with players when they are on the table in a trade, or there are not other ways to get information on whether a player would be open to playing for your team.
Agents are back channels to players and can facilitate communication without tampering. How the hell do you think trades get worked out, especially those where NTC and NMC are involved? Teams talk to players through sanctioned means (permissions) or back channels (agents). You should be more concerned that these conversations didn't take place than worrying about how they do.

Nah.

Put yourself in Weegar or Hube's shoes for 5 seconds and you should realize why this is dumb.

I think both are far more likely to entertain an extension here now than they would have been during any pre-trade consultation.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I can believe it. And any possible creeping disbelief is quickly replaced by fascination over the imaginative reasons people come up with to criticize it.

It's like prodding a conspiracy theorist to tell you more about why the Earth is flat. You know it's bull####, but it's fun learning how their mind works.

I see no reason to criticize this trade either, it was a home run for the Flames.

But there is a different group of posters who will reply to every single critical post defending any move the current GM has ever made. So it does cut both ways.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

Okay…say hube and Weegar say absolutely not interested. What would you have done then?


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[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

Regardless of whether or not they resign, I do this deal 100% of the time.

I would now trade them for futures etc. They will get significantly more than they would have gotten for Tkachuk alone. Plus they will have already banked a first and a decent prospect.

If Treliving had done his due diligence and found out they wouldn't sign, he has really handcuffed himself. It would be hard to them then do the trade, as the players would now be pissed off with him, instead of just Florida.

You don't ask for consent for something that may not be given. Better to go ahead and ask for forgiveness instead.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

Had the Flames taken the route of approaching the players to secure a deal before the trade, and assuming Huberdeau agrees to an extension, the deal would have been for Huberdeau. Period.

The return being Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt and a 1st was precisely BECAUSE they are UFAs.

And I, for one, am THRILLED that they did it this way.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I see no reason to criticize this trade either, it was a home run for the Flames.

But there is a different group of posters who will reply to every single critical post defending any move the current GM has ever made. So it does cut both ways.

Sure, but the existence of one side does not somehow validate the existence of the other, so the criticism is warranted (in both directions)

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Okay…say hube and Weegar say absolutely not interested. What would you have done then?


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I'd still do this trade over any trade that was rumoured to be out there. IMO Huberdeau could get some of the exact same returns that Tkachuk was rumoured to be getting or close too.

Both Weegar and Huberdeau are so grossly under paid for next season that finding a trade partner for them would be much easier. I'm certain that we could get a good prospect and a first and a young RFA for HUberdeau and maybe both.

As long as Treliving pulls the trigger if he fails to sign both I could see us having a line of up of teams interested in either or.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The Iginla situation taught us how fluid things can be
Matthew said he was open to a deal with Florida. That could have changed at any moment leaving the flames with St. Louis and Carolina
It’s widely believed the blues offered tarasenko, scandella and a lotto protected first. Imagine if they had to go back to that deal as a basis
All we know about Carolina is they offered Necas.
Tree did the right thing to move and close on the superior deal with urgency

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

So Florida gets to dictate controls in the trade and do their due diligence so they get full value in the trade, but the Flames should not? WTF? Might explain why this team continues to go nowhere. They refuse to do their due diligence to control what should be rightly theirs to control.

The risk in contract status is why the Flames got the return they did. It is a very good risk return on a depreciating asset from the Flames perspective. You still haven't answered if the answer is no to long term contracts, do you think it would be better to take a lesser return?

I trade commodities for a living and you have to trade and make decisions with imperfect information, the people who need every detail nailed down miss the opportunity and usually get left sitting on the sidelines. It is all about how Treliving manages the position going forward and I think if he was going to sit on a losing position he would have just signed Tkachuk to a one year deal and hoped he would change his mind.

[Electricprez]

I like this trade and think it is good

[VilleN]

When you look at this trade, the trade for Lindholm and Hanifin, the trade for Dougie Hamilton, our improved drafting and development, majority of RFA signings, some pretty damn good UFA signings as of late; I have to think Tre is in the upper tier of GMs. All GMs make mistakes, but I can't think of a GM off hand that has made as many blockbuster trades that have not blown up in his face.

[Five-hole]

Maybe we could debate whether this was a good trade or not in the trade thread and leave this thread for people who are interested in any news on signing the newly acquired players?