[Trade] Tkachuk (8 yrs x $9.5 mil) + `25 4th to FLA for Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt & `25 1st

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Will Monahan’s rehab make him a better skater?

Because that’s probably the bigger problem.

As mentioned, we will observe his skating when he is completely rehabilitated.

The management, coaches and especially Sean will know the answer to your question after that transpires.

Patience is a virtue.

Bottom line….we’ll know soon enough.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Will Monahan’s rehab make him a better skater?

Because that’s probably the bigger problem.

So long as it doesn't make him a worse skater, because for years this was not really a problem.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by timbit

As mentioned, we will observe his skating when he is completely rehabilitated.

The management, coaches and especially Sean will know the answer to your question after that transpires.

Patience is a virtue.

Bottom line….we’ll know soon enough.

Maybe your right. But I think Monahan’s big problem is his skating. Even before his rash of injuries he had trouble keeping up. The game is so fast now it’s even more glaring. He masked that problem by being an excellent trigger man. That’s his real skill. But probably not good enough now days.

He was making progress in his role change. But that role doesn’t warrant a $6.7 million price tag. So no matter how you cut it his contract is going to cause the Flames grief this year.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Keep moving the goalposts. Your point was that Sutter is inexperienced at coaching 100 pt players, and possibly even detrimental to it (I mean there's a reason he never has 100 pt players on his teams, right?).

This was shown to be not only inaccurate, but patently ridiculous. But instead of just letting it go, you have now slipped in behind vagaries such as "there's a lot Huberdeau will be up against". It's classic cognitive dissonance. You originally started with the (incorrect) premise that it is a bad trade because it doesn't fix the losses of both Tkachuk AND Gaudreau, and have been digging 'up' ever since.

What are you talking about? My point wasn’t about Darryl was inexperienced at coaching 100 point players at all. It was just one of the several examples I was using to illustrate what Huberdeau has going up against him this coming season. It wasn’t some shot at Darryl, I like Darryl. But it’s no secret he likes sound defensive hockey which I believe contributed to it taking 28 years between his 100 point scorers. Pretty much the main point I was trying to make was that I’m expecting Huberdeau’s offensive production to regress which isn’t even an unreasonable.

Lastly, the reason why I didn’t like the trade was because of the direction of the trade as I’ve stated many times. I would’ve preferred younger, quality, team controllable assets over a couple 1 year rentals because I don’t think this team is stronger than last year. So I would’ve preferred to go the other direction.

[timbit]

Did the Flames top offensive players regress with Darryl at the helm?

Quite the contrary. Sixth best goal production in the NHL last season.

[wired]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What are you talking about? My point wasn’t about Darryl was inexperienced at coaching 100 point players at all. It was just one of the several examples I was using to illustrate what Huberdeau has going up against him this coming season. It wasn’t some shot at Darryl, I like Darryl. But it’s no secret he likes sound defensive hockey which I believe contributed to it taking 28 years between his 100 point scorers. Pretty much the main point I was trying to make was that I’m expecting Huberdeau’s offensive production to regress which isn’t even an unreasonable.

Lastly, the reason why I didn’t like the trade was because of the direction of the trade as I’ve stated many times. I would’ve preferred younger, quality, team controllable assets over a couple 1 year rentals because I don’t think this team is stronger than last year. So I would’ve preferred to go the other direction.

At least the team got something for MT, rather than ride the wave and lose him for squat.

If the Flames get those two resigned, we are a far better team moving forward. Hubs will make everyone he plays with better, and our defense is much better with Weeger.

Both JG, and MT will regress quite drastically this year IMO. Both teams miss the playoffs, and the Flames are going to compete for the western conference this year.

All my opinion.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Haven’t we done that the last two seasons?

Been patient with Monahan? That’s sure not what I’ve seen overall.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Stampede2TheCup

Been patient with Monahan? That’s sure not what I’ve seen overall.

They for sure did that last year. He was sheltered on the 4th line. What else can they do?

[JohnnyB]

What are the chances a healthy Monahan reaches UFA unsigned and goes to Columbus?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What are the chances a healthy Monahan reaches UFA unsigned and goes to Columbus?

I wouldn't be too hurt about it lol.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I wouldn't be too hurt about it lol.

Nor would I. I like Monahan and appreciate everything he's done as a Flame so far, but that's a friendship that deserves to stick together. The hug in the tunnel after game 7 was a truly great moment of sports.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Nor would I. I like Monahan and appreciate everything he's done as a Flame so far, but that's a friendship that deserves to stick together. The hug in the tunnel after game 7 was a truly great moment of sports.

Sticking together is what good waffles do.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Goriders

They for sure did that last year. He was sheltered on the 4th line. What else can they do?

The post you responded to said “people”, thus probably mostly implying people here and not the team.

Originally Posted by timbit

Can people not have the patience to allow Monahan to heal from his surgeries and then observe his performance?

He deserves that.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Stampede2TheCup

The post you responded to said “people”, thus probably mostly implying people here and not the team.

Ok maybe. But I think the team gave him plenty of oppurtunity and then they brought in Jarnkrok. Who also didn’t really pan out.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So long as it doesn't make him a worse skater, because for years this was not really a problem.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

To be fair, nearly 10 years he’s been in the league. No question the league is quite a bit faster today vs when he broke in.

[Electricprez]

Hip surgeries and hockey players, a "I had too much time on my hands" collection of semi-useless insights:

https://www.prohockeystrength.com/pu...ey-Players.cfm

• Players who played 5+ years after surgery had symptoms an average of 9 months
• Players who played less than 5 years after surgery had symptoms 20+ months
• Return to sport time is 6-8 months. From another article, most get back to 'everyday activities' within 4 months; rehab for athletes 5-6 months, 100% within 9 months.
• Those who played 5+ years had an average age of 25 at surgery
• Those who played 5> years had average age of 30 at surgery

Other players who have had this surgery (labrum), as a proxy (article is from January 20, 2021):

https://ontheshelf.ca/2021/01/20/nhl...n%20the%20hip.

• Pastrnak
• Seguin
• Marchand
• Jamie Benn
• Klingberg
• Nichuskin
• Kucherov (may not have been labrum)

Importantly, what Backstrom has had done (Hip resurfacing surgery) is far more intense and less likely to lead to a strong return, so... keep that guy out of your fantasy pools.

Another study of return rate: https://academic.oup.com/jhps/article/6/3/234/5536657

• 77 Players underwent hip arthroscopy for FAI (Labrum, like Monahan) between 2000 to 2017
• Mean age was 29, mean experience in NHL was 8 years
• 90.9% of offensive players returned to the sport
• Average post-op career length: 3.3 years
• "Despite the significant decrease in career lengths following surgery, there was no significant decrease in post-operative performance scores compared with pre-operatively and between post-operative cases and post-index controls for all positions." -- because this study also accounts for age and regular career performance decline and does not attribute 100% of it to the surgery
• "The authors may not have been able to identify all previous hip surgeries for the included players which has been shown to have an effect on the outcomes of hip arthroscopy for FAI" <-- may impact Monahan in this case, irrespective of his other surgeries/medical issues.

Conclusion: "The RTS (return to sport) rate for NHL athletes after hip arthroscopy for FAI is above 90% at less than 1 year. Following surgery, if a player returns to the NHL, then their post-operative performance is similar to pre-operatively and controls, but their careers are approximately one season less than controls."

[mennoknight]

Originally Posted by Electricprez

Hip surgeries and hockey players, a "I had too much time on my hands" collection of semi-useless insights:

https://www.prohockeystrength.com/pu...ey-Players.cfm

• Players who played 5+ years after surgery had symptoms an average of 9 months
• Players who played less than 5 years after surgery had symptoms 20+ months
• Return to sport time is 6-8 months. From another article, most get back to 'everyday activities' within 4 months; rehab for athletes 5-6 months, 100% within 9 months.
• Those who played 5+ years had an average age of 25 at surgery
• Those who played 5> years had average age of 30 at surgery

Other players who have had this surgery, as a proxy (article is from January 20, 2021):

https://ontheshelf.ca/2021/01/20/nhl...n%20the%20hip.

• David Pasternak
• Tyler Seguin
• Nikita Kucherov (may not have been labrum)

Another study of return rate: https://academic.oup.com/jhps/article/6/3/234/5536657

• 77 Players underwent hip arthroscopy for FAI (Labrum, like Monahan) between 2000 to 2017
• Mean age was 29, mean experience in NHL was 8 years
• 90.9% of offensive players returned to the sport
• Average post-op career length: 3.3 years
• "Despite the significant decrease in career lengths following surgery, there was no significant decrease in post-operative performance scores compared with pre-operatively and between post-operative cases and post-index controls for all positions." -- because this study also accounts for age and regular career performance decline.
• "The authors may not have been able to identify all previous hip surgeries for the included players which has been shown to have an effect on the outcomes of hip arthroscopy for FAI" <-- impacts Monahan

Conclusion: "The RTS rate for NHL athletes after hip arthroscopy for FAI is above 90% at less than 1 year. Following surgery, if a player returns to the NHL, then their post-operative performance is similar to pre-operatively and controls, but their careers are approximately one season less than controls."

I'm two months out from this surgery and I'm at like...25% strength in that leg? Granted, I don't have a team physician/physiotherapist to help me, but I go pretty hard on bikes/even light jogging. I will never skate again, that kind of motion is still agonizing. Can't sit for more than 15 minutes at a time.

[calumniate]

Thanks doc!

[Electricprez]

Originally Posted by mennoknight

I'm two months out from this surgery and I'm at like...25% strength in that leg? Granted, I don't have a team physician/physiotherapist to help me, but I go pretty hard on bikes/even light jogging. I will never skate again, that kind of motion is still agonizing. Can't sit for more than 15 minutes at a time.

The biggest thing for me was when someone put it into perspective this way:

After hip surgery #1, Monahan had to re-learn and reinvent his skating stride to be effective. That's hard to do (guys work YEARS on their skating), especially for a player whose game has been winning faceoffs, getting to the right place quickly, and staying strong on the puck.

Hip injuries also impact faceoff percentages, because the demands of that sort of motion are even higher and put more strain on that area.

After hip surgery #2, the guy has to do all of the above all over again. I don't think he's going to come back with miraculously better skating than years previous.

Which is why, as much as I genuinely love Monahan, a hope for a resurgence to top 6 form just isn't something I'm allowing myself. He may do better with a move to the wing where he doesn't have to take draws.

[JackIsBack]

Originally Posted by Electricprez

their post-operative performance is similar to pre-operatively

How do we, and more importantly, how did they measure this pre-operative "performance" in this study.... because Monahan's performance slide well before his operation... and I think we'd be happy if he returns to his performance in the 2018-2019 season.... but if he returns to his 2020 (or after) performance levels, well, then that's not worth 6.7 million or even close to it.