[News] Jake Virtanen on leave from the Canucks after sexual misconduct allegation

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

He went to trial. Not only did he go to trial, he took it to a verdict, and let the jury decide is his fate.

The jury came back not guilty. Virtanen is free to go.

That’s the country we live in, and I don’t think you’d enjoy living in a country where a Not Guilty jury verdict isn’t worth the paper its printed on.

No one is complaining about the verdict. And no one is saying “it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on”. He gets to go free. That’s what it’s worth. What I’m saying is that (a) it doesn’t mean innocent and (b) based on a whole lot of factors there’s a decent chance he did it. Hell, she could still quite conceivably win a civil case with the court saying it’s more likely than not that he assaulted her. See Simpson, OJ.

[Reaper]

Aside from the trial, there has been enough smoke around Virtanen all the way back to his junior days with the Hitmen that despite no criminal convictions I can conclude that he is not a quality individual and I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No one is complaining about the verdict. And no one is saying “it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on”. He gets to go free. That’s what it’s worth. What I’m saying is that (a) it doesn’t mean innocent and (b) based on a whole lot of factors there’s a decent chance he did it. Hell, she could still quite conceivably win a civil case with the court saying it’s more likely than not that he assaulted her. See Simpson, OJ.

And if she wins the civil case, it means with at least 51% certainty that he did it. In that scenario one could say it is more likely than not that he sexually assaulted her and he was found not guilty in a criminal trial. The not guilty would still be worth the paper it is written on, even in that circumstance.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I am suggesting, based on stats, the extremely low percentages of false accusations, and how juries work, yeah, he probably did.

No.
He maybe did, maybe didn't, that's it.

Your position is as bad (actually worse) than people assuming she's a liar and he didn't do anything.

[dino7c]

the sad reality is that he isn't all that good...if he was teams would be lining up

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

No.
He maybe did, maybe didn't, that's it.

Your position is as bad (actually worse) than people assuming she's a liar and he didn't do anything.

No, it’s not worse. It is just a reflection of stats on sexual assault prosecutions and false claims. The jury finding is that there’s a reasonable doubt that he did. They could be 90% sure he did, and still acquit. That’s the system.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, it’s not worse. It is just a reflection of stats on sexual assault prosecutions and false claims. The jury finding is that there’s a reasonable doubt that he did. They could be 90% sure he did, and still acquit. That’s the system.

Judgement of an individual case should never be made on statistics.
If the person is found guilty or not guilty based on the evidence in their trial, that's all, final.

Would you use statistics to judge an African American male accused of a violent crime in America?
Even if found not guilty, he probably still did it because you know, statistics.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by PuckSlap

It sucks, but it happens more than you know.

Any stats on this? Because there is a lot of data and studies on how under-reported sexual assault is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Judgement of an individual case should never be made on statistics.
If the person is found guilty or not guilty based on the evidence in their trial, that's all, final.

Would you use statistics to judge an African American male accused of a violent crime in America?
Even if found not guilty, he probably still did it because you know, statistics.

Stats say African Americans are falsely targeted more than any other group, so no. And I’m not judging anyone. I’m stating an opinion about charges and trials in general. Jury verdicts are a lousy way to determine these things in the first place, and second, in a sexual assault with no witnesses, the criminal justice system is terribly flawed.

And no, a criminal verdict is not final for anything other than the criminal trial. See Simpson, OJ.

[Newton]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

No.
He maybe did, maybe didn't, that's it.

Your position is as bad (actually worse) than people assuming she's a liar and he didn't do anything.

I don't see how that is worse.

First off - there is no evidence that the girl is a liar. Not one shred of credible evidence. For starters she wasn't charged with perjury, there is no evidence that she lied. that is not 50/50

This is the defense:

Martland said she could have "come up with something to stop things from progressing,” suggesting she could have said "I have a yeast infection" or "I’m menstruating."

This appeared to upset M.S. who replied: “I thought saying no I didn’t want to do this, I seriously don’t want to do this, holding my hands on his hips pushing him off me was enough.”

There is evidence Virtanen is guilty of this offence. They presented that evidence at trial. I personally think her testimony nudges the likelihood of his guilt to higher than "maybe"

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

And if she wins the civil case, it means with at least 51% certainty that he did it. In that scenario one could say it is more likely than not that he sexually assaulted her and he was found not guilty in a criminal trial. The not guilty would still be worth the paper it is written on, even in that circumstance.

Right.

Meanwhile, I don’t see him pressing any charges for making a false criminal complaint.

[PuckSlap]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, he’s not “said to be innocent”. That’s the point.

Have you met “women” who lied about a rape or just one woman? You’ve said both. And somehow you got this person to admit to a lie?

They exist. It’s often to get sympathy or attention from others.

[Eb0la11]

I believe he didn’t do it and also believe in the justice system and second chances

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Newton

I don't see how that is worse.

First off - there is no evidence that the girl is a liar. Not one shred of credible evidence. For starters she wasn't charged with perjury, there is no evidence that she lied. that is not 50/50

This is the defense:

Martland said she could have "come up with something to stop things from progressing,” suggesting she could have said "I have a yeast infection" or "I’m menstruating."

This appeared to upset M.S. who replied: “I thought saying no I didn’t want to do this, I seriously don’t want to do this, holding my hands on his hips pushing him off me was enough.”

There is evidence Virtanen is guilty of this offence. They presented that evidence at trial. I personally think her testimony nudges the likelihood of his guilt to higher than "maybe"

If there’s evidence, why wasn’t he found guilty? Is there also evidence he’s not guilty?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If there’s evidence, why wasn’t he found guilty? Is there also evidence he’s not guilty?

Yes, he testified she consented. That’s evidence. She testified she didn’t. Also evidence. Unless his testimony was tossed all together, it’s hard to see a jury convicting.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, he testified she consented. That’s evidence. She testified she didn’t. Also evidence. Unless his testimony was tossed all together, it’s hard to see a jury convicting.

Man, it’s times like this I’m thankful for CP. can’t get insight like this anywhere else!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PuckSlap

They exist. It’s often to get sympathy or attention from others.

There are far far more victims who never get justice. Either from failure to charge, or from failure to convict. Which results in victims often deciding it’s not even worth a criminal report.

You never answered the question about your anecdote.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

If there’s evidence, why wasn’t he found guilty? Is there also evidence he’s not guilty?

Reasonable doubt.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PuckSlap

They exist. It’s often to get sympathy or attention from others.

How would you even know if anyone is lying about that?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Did I just invent sarcasm? Because I think I might be the only person who knows what it is.