Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Johnny said in the Players Tribune that he wanted to sign longterm last summer in Calgary, that did not happen either. I guess it is possible that the owners said do not sign him longterm and do not trade him. If that happened one would hope that the GM would say that is not a good approach.

For what amount did he want to sign?
Without knowing that how can you judge if it was a mistake or not

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Everything good that Treliving has done shows how good of a GM he is.
Everything bad isn't his fault because ownership made him.
Good draft picks are a credit to Treliving.
Good draft picks before Treliving? well, thank the scouts for those.

Wasn't a big deal made a few years ago, when he signed his extension, that Treliving now had full autonomy to make decisions? I mean within reason of course.
Did that change somewhere? is there any proof that Edwards is forcing him to bungle these assets and constantly burn high draft picks?

It's amazing how many apologies are made for this guy. I'm not saying he's a horrible GM but he has a body of work and he should be judged based on it. Obviously you don't make change just for sake of change and bring in a worse GM but the clock should certainly be ticking on this guy and the first available upgrade should be jumped on. That's regardless of whether he manages to pull the Tkachuk situation out of the fire.

Minimizing and misrepresenting the views of people who don’t agree with you is an awesome way to have a debate

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Johnny said in the Players Tribune that he wanted to sign longterm last summer in Calgary, that did not happen either. I guess it is possible that the owners said do not sign him longterm and do not trade him. If that happened one would hope that the GM would say that is not a good approach.

You realize there would have been terms discussed. I imagine Treliving offered him a deal based on his production at the time, and lack of PO success. I imagine Gaudreau didn't like the offer and decided to wait out another year to see what his stats were. Treliving doesn't offer windfall contracts (or bargain ones too often). I feel like he is completely technical on contracts: here are your numbers, here are comparable players at that production, here's their contracts. I've heard 8x8 was offered which, if you look at contracts then, and production, would have been right in line.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Flames had 4 straight first round losses, followed by 4 straight playoff misses before this ownership group decided to fire Sutter and actually commit to a re-build.

Honestly the only way I see Treliving getting fired is if he is pushing heavily for a re-build, and ownership wants to keep trying to push for the playoffs just with a team minus Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

And then the owners will go find a GM that wants to do that.

I suspect they will have a hard review at the end of his contract term. I forget when that is. I think he's safe until then.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

For what amount did he want to sign?
Without knowing that how can you judge if it was a mistake or not

If it was less than the 10.5 million that the Flames allegedly offered Johnny this year it was a mistake. But to pre-empt the "he was not worth that last summer" talking point, I think it is a mistake because unless you have some rose coloured glass view of what Calgary is compared to other NHL markets, every effort should have been made last summer to sign him longterm that summer. Virtually every other NHL franchise does that and does not let their top players enter into their final season without a contract. If you thought he was a piece you wanted last summer, you sign him (even if it is for more than what you think he is worth). Far better to overpay the top guys and sign Carpenter for 750K and let Rooney go to another team for 1.3 million and use than money on an overpaid Gaudreau than it is to nickel and dime your top player.

The list of absolute NHL studs under the age of 30 that made it to the post-season of their final year of their contract where they could become a UFA is very small. There is a reason for that, most teams get that business done long before that date. Not that I think the Flames will sign Tkachuk to a one year deal and let him go to UFA, but if they did, Tkachuk and Gaudreau would be two of the top 5 players to hit UFA in the last decade. It almost never happens for a reason. Even letting Johnny reach that stage, the only two players that compare to him under the age of 30 in the past decade that reached that stage are Tavares and Panarin.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Every year players enter their final year without a contract. Good players. Top of the roster players

[Flamesfan05]

How many team lost their top player in his prime for nothing? Tavares?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

For what amount did he want to sign?
Without knowing that how can you judge if it was a mistake or not

Yup, could you imagine the outcry if it was a 10x8 contract last summer

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

For what amount did he want to sign?
Without knowing that how can you judge if it was a mistake or not

And hindsight is 20/20.

It was 'speculated' the Flames offered 7.5 and John's position was 9.

Of course now we'd take that any day but at the time I can see why they both paused discussions given that gap (if those were the real #'s).

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Every year players enter their final year without a contract. Good players. Top of the roster players

Who are these players who end the final year of their contract without a new contract? Who are these players who enter the final season of their contract without a new contract historically?

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

How many team lost their top player in his prime for nothing? Tavares?

The Gretzky trade comes to mind *chuckle chuckle

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The list of absolute NHL studs under the age of 30 that made it to the post-season of their final year of their contract where they could become a UFA is very small. There is a reason for that, most teams get that business done long before that date. Not that I think the Flames will sign Tkachuk to a one year deal and let him go to UFA, but if they did, Tkachuk and Gaudreau would be two of the top 5 players to hit UFA in the last decade. It almost never happens for a reason. Even letting Johnny reach that stage, the only two players that compare to him under the age of 30 in the past decade that reached that stage are Tavares and Panarin.

Actually if you go back to the 2016 offsesaon and look at contracts $8M or greater for guys that could have been expiring to UFA and it actually leans more to people getting to the period where they at least have the threat of UFA.

Signed Prior to end of last season: 13 - Hertl, Barkov, Zibanejad, Nurse, Jones, Josi, Seguin, Wheeler, Doughty, Couture, Ekman-Larsson, Price, Burns

Signed Post-Season but Before UFA: 6 - Forsberg, Karlsson, Skinner, Stone, Stamkos, Carlson

Went UFA: 8 - Gaudreau, Hamilton, Pietrangelo, Hall, Panarin, Duchene, Bobrovsky, Tavares,

So 13 re-signed between July 1st and the end of the season with one year left on their deal, and 14 made it to the end of the season with their contract technically up - 6 stayed with their team, and 8 went to actual UFA. And sure with 115 points Gaudreau is a bit of a step ahead of some of these guys, but if you look at the last 4 years a whole I think it's a fair comparison.

So the split is much more equal than people think - because generally it's the RFAs like in Tkachuk's situation that get re-signed early avoiding this whole UFA risk altogether.

I'd say one thing does stand out with that list above though...of those 27 contracts only a handful have aged well. Just proves that signing guys to 7+ years when they are 28 or older is risky.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Minimizing and misrepresenting the views of people who don’t agree with you is an awesome way to have a debate

Just like you do all the time.

Can you tell me how losing a First team all-star who got 115 points for nothing and now you are going to have to trade a Second team all-star who got 104 points is a good look on any GM in the NHL.
This is all in one off-season.
What a legacy this GM will have.

He must be the early favorite for the 2023 GM of the year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

How many team lost their top player in his prime for nothing? Tavares?

Ummmm - Columbus? Arguably Carolina?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

And hindsight is 20/20.

It was 'speculated' the Flames offered 7.5 and John's position was 9.

Of course now we'd take that any day but at the time I can see why they both paused discussions given that gap (if those were the real #'s).

Who knows how much playing for a contract pushed JG this season as well?

I don't know if that is really a thing or not. I would love to know if there is data for that sort of thing, but of course there is probably a correlation with age/peak and the timing for when players are usually due for a new contract.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

The Gretzky trade comes to mind *chuckle chuckle

Carson, three first round picks, Gelinas and a boat load of cash?

[OptimalTates]

Bouwmeester too from Florida, minus the late round pick for negotiation rights.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Actually if you go back to the 2016 offsesaon and look at contracts $8M or greater for guys that could have been expiring to UFA and it actually leans more to people getting to the period where they at least have the threat of UFA.

Signed Prior to end of last season: 13 - Hertl, Barkov, Zibanejad, Nurse, Jones, Josi, Seguin, Wheeler, Doughty, Couture, Ekman-Larsson, Price, Burns

Signed Post-Season but Before UFA: 6 - Forsberg, Karlsson, Skinner, Stone, Stamkos, Carlson

Went UFA: 8 - Gaudreau, Hamilton, Pietrangelo, Hall, Panarin, Duchene, Bobrovsky, Tavares,

So 13 re-signed between July 1st and the end of the season with one year left on their deal, and 14 made it to the end of the season with their contract technically up - 6 stayed with their team, and 8 went to actual UFA. And sure with 115 points Gaudreau is a bit of a step ahead of some of these guys, but if you look at the last 4 years a whole I think it's a fair comparison.

So the split is much more equal than people think - because generally it's the RFAs like in Tkachuk's situation that get re-signed early avoiding this whole UFA risk altogether.

I'd say one thing does stand out with that list above though...of those 27 contracts only a handful have aged well. Just proves that signing guys to 7+ years when they are 28 or older is risky.

Thanks for this. I would say in the case of Hall, Duchene and Stone the team they started with at the start of the season made the call during the season to get assets for them. For both teams, they did not really have a realistic chance at the playoffs (even from the very start of the season, the Devils and Sens were always expected to suck those years). Not sure what all that means, other than to say Arizona, Columbus and Vegas never had a chance to sign them before the season started.

Even Karlsson is in the category of the team trading him rather than losing him for nothing and he was traded in mid September. I guess the Sharks could have signed him before the season started but they would have had a shorter negotiating time compared to if he was their player the year before.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Carson, three first round picks, Gelinas and a boat load of cash?

I was being facetious, but Carson busted after 1 good year, all the picks sucked and Gelinas topped out at 20 goals/40 points for the Oilers (played 4 seasons).

Not to mention they didn't just give up Gretzky.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Actually if you go back to the 2016 offsesaon and look at contracts $8M or greater for guys that could have been expiring to UFA and it actually leans more to people getting to the period where they at least have the threat of UFA.

Signed Prior to end of last season: 13 - Hertl, Barkov, Zibanejad, Nurse, Jones, Josi, Seguin, Wheeler, Doughty, Couture, Ekman-Larsson, Price, Burns

Signed Post-Season but Before UFA: 6 - Forsberg, Karlsson, Skinner, Stone, Stamkos, Carlson

Went UFA: 8 - Gaudreau, Hamilton, Pietrangelo, Hall, Panarin, Duchene, Bobrovsky, Tavares,

So 13 re-signed between July 1st and the end of the season with one year left on their deal, and 14 made it to the end of the season with their contract technically up - 6 stayed with their team, and 8 went to actual UFA. And sure with 115 points Gaudreau is a bit of a step ahead of some of these guys, but if you look at the last 4 years a whole I think it's a fair comparison.

Skinner, Stone, Karlsson, Duchene and Hall were traded in the final years of their contracts though. Not exactly the same as keeping the player and letting him walk to UFA.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Who are these players who end the final year of their contract without a new contract? Who are these players who enter the final season of their contract without a new contract historically?

As of right now: Tkachuk (as an RFA), Kadri (as a UFA), any UFA's out there still have no contracts.

Honorable mentions: Mangi and Kylington (both RFA)