[Signing] Gaudreau to Columbus (7 x $9.75 million)

[GioforPM]

All I know is that Bingo has never farted in front of me, so I can't say whether I happily smell them or not.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

And I strongly disagree with you about your posts, you started off condescending and never let up.

Even now you refuse to acknowledge that I never cared about the return for Gaudreau. I cared about the certainty at the draft to plan accordingly.

So it is a thicker skin thing then? Gotcha.

You're pretty cocky in most things you post, don't confuse someone returning your serve with being condescending. Pot ... kettle ... you know the saying.

So you don't care about the return, but then why force a deadline on an agent and player if it increases the likelihood you lose the player? To gain some flexibility at the draft that would still be hampered by not knowing Tkachuk's fate? Or do you have a deadline on both and increase the chance of losing both players?

[Lanny_McDonald]

You going to answer the big question??? Please explain to me HOW this scenario would have played out in their favor? Explain how tying Gaudreau's contract to Sutter, and the hope of improved team success, would work in the team's favor at all? You're up. What potential benefit was there to kick this can down the road?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You going to answer the big question??? Please explain to me HOW this scenario would have played out in their favor? Explain how tying Gaudreau's contract to Sutter, and the hope of improved team success, would work in the team's favor at all? You're up. What potential benefit was there to kick this can down the road?

I, too, find people are more receptive to me demanding they answer my questions and continue talking to me after I've buried it under a few weird insults.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You going to answer the big question??? Please explain to me HOW this scenario would have played out in their favor? Explain how tying Gaudreau's contract to Sutter, and the hope of improved team success, would work in the team's favor at all? You're up. What potential benefit was there to kick this can down the road?

You're posts are too frickin long.

When you write a novel like that I just cut to the insult and respond quickly.

My ADD won't let me dig into your chaos that deeply.

But this one is shorter so sure ... I've answered it 1100 times in the last 8 months.

- I firmly believe owners make the call on the franchise player, not the GM
- I don't have a problem with said owners going for it with Sutter and the season they had proves that out
- Guessing the return before the NTC kicked it was underwhelming given the season he had
- I think they came pretty close to pulling the whole thing off (risking the window and keeping the player)

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A fair market deal is surely a win. Just go back and look at the reaction. People were predicting the same term and $9M. And I wouldn't say Gross won a round this time either. I think he and Johnny screwed themselves. And the Flames. They overplayed their hand. They managed to screw the Flames too, but that's not on Treliving, for acting according to everything we know about Gross and his handling of star players like Gaudreau, Krug and Nylander.

Gross won. His client got what he wanted. He didn't get the massive payout that was there, but his client did get what he wanted. More importantly, the Flames lost. They got nothing out of the whole mess. So in the measure between agent and team, agent unfortunately won.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Lonestar

Secondly, Treliving gave up leverage in this negotiation 6 years ago when he offered a contract that would lead Johnny up to UFA status.

Pretty much every 2nd contract does that.

Johnny's covered one UFA year.

So, should it have been a 3 year contract, two shy of UFA?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Gross won. His client got what he wanted. He didn't get the massive payout that was there, but his client did get what he wanted. More importantly, the Flames lost. They got nothing out of the whole mess. So in the measure between agent and team, agent unfortunately won.

LOL Gross did not win. His client didn't get what he wanted either, unless you believe him about Columbus. He settled for a second rate choice at lower money than he expected.

That's one of the many reasons Gross was trying to do damage control the next day.

[OptimalTates]

8, 7, 6, 3, 2, 1, 4, 5 were probably the order of most valuable to least purely based on years for the Flames.

5 makes him a UFA Right away, 4 gives him the ability to walk to UFA with a QO which would be ridiculous to put your star winger in that position. 1, 2, 3, are pretty similar in that it means multiple negotiations with another kick at the can, 6 only takes one year UFA but provides certainty for six years, and obviously 7 and 8 would have been the best outcome.

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL Gross did not win. His client didn't get what he wanted either, unless you believe him about Columbus. He settled for a second rate choice at lower money than he expected.

That's one of the many reasons Gross was trying to do damage control the next day.

There's plenty of L's circling around this situation to spread around, but I don't think Gross completely lost. He did what any negotiator would do for their client, and his client ended up signing a contract that will make both of them a lot of money. JG didn't sign the contract here for whatever reason, but he did sign a large contract somewhere else, how can you say he didn't get what he wanted?

[OptimalTates]

Gross lost out financially because his client took less money elsewhere. But he certainly won by getting his client the offer on the table that he was allegedly wanting to stay here. Gaudreau losing by not signing it shouldn't be a loss for Gross given the current rumours.

If Gross did advice him that he could make more elsewhere, that's different.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lonestar

There's plenty of L's circling around this situation to spread around, but I don't think Gross completely lost. He did what any negotiator would do for their client, and his client ended up signing a contract that will make both of them a lot of money. JG didn't sign the contract here for whatever reason, but he did sign a large contract somewhere else, how can you say he didn't get what he wanted?

IMO in order he wanted: huge contract from Philly; Some other contract from Philly; Huge contract elsewhere; Monster contract from Calgary; some other contract elsewhere; huge contract from Calgary (arguably this was way higher in priority for Gross and maybe even Johnny but not for the fam). He managed to get an offer of the last one and wound up settling for second last.

I think Gaudreau is pretty unhappy with the outcome, despite the brave face.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Gross lost out financially because his client took less money elsewhere. But he certainly won by getting his client the offer on the table that he was allegedly wanting to stay here. Gaudreau losing by not signing it shouldn't be a loss for Gross given the current rumours.

If Gross did advice him that he could make more elsewhere, that's different.

I'm confident this happened. With some basis, given the predictions by various outlets.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Lonestar

There's plenty of L's circling around this situation to spread around, but I don't think Gross completely lost. He did what any negotiator would do for their client, and his client ended up signing a contract that will make both of them a lot of money. JG didn't sign the contract here for whatever reason, but he did sign a large contract somewhere else, how can you say he didn't get what he wanted?

I agree. It really depends on what Gaudreau wanted. If he wanted a big pay day, he got it. If he wanted to be "closer" to home, he got that too. Only time will tell if he really "happy".

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Gross won. His client got what he wanted. He didn't get the massive payout that was there, but his client did get what he wanted. More importantly, the Flames lost. They got nothing out of the whole mess. So in the measure between agent and team, agent unfortunately won.

Did the Flames lose?

Lets assume the return for Gaudreau last year is similar to the return we saw Sam Reinhart get last year - both guys had similar years in 19-20 and 20-21 - but even give Gaudreau the better return.

So lets say the offers in the 21 offseason were:

Late First (20-32 range)
2nd
Mid-range prospect.

Now how many GMs would have traded that package for single year of a player that would be promised to get them 115 points, 40 goals, and whom would finish 4th in Hart trophy voting on the way to a division title.

I think most owners would take that trade off any day of the week, sure we don't have any remaining assets from Gaudreau, but it doesn't mean the value of not trading him in 2021 was nothing.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Gross lost out financially because his client took less money elsewhere. But he certainly won by getting his client the offer on the table that he was allegedly wanting to stay here. Gaudreau losing by not signing it shouldn't be a loss for Gross given the current rumours.

If Gross did advice him that he could make more elsewhere, that's different.

I think Gross also potentially lost some credibility because I think to some degree they agreed to a deal with the Flames, and then Johnny backed out.
Which is why I think Gross went out of his way to say the Flames could not have done anything more than they did. Some damage control there in my view.

Or maybe Johnny wears it. But I bet his agent isn't happy how it played out.

[dustygoon]

Looks like Johnny will be on Spitting Chiclets

Will be interesting from the point of view that Whit is close with Hayes.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To gain some flexibility at the draft that would still be hampered by not knowing Tkachuk's fate? Or do you have a deadline on both and increase the chance of losing both players?

Why can't we talk to Tkachuk in this situation to know his fate?

Gaudreau leaving should trigger a rebuild in my opinion. There's no reason to lie to Tkachuk about it. Be honest, say the Flames are now going to try and rebuild over the next couple years and he can be the face during this rebuild and sign long-term or the Flames (potentially with his agent's help if he agrees to sign) can find a team to trade Tkachuk.

Realistically he's likely opting out of the rebuild, but maybe Ottawa sends over the DeBrincat package as suggested or the Devils do one of the many rumoured trades, and the Flames enter UFA period without have to re-sign Zadorov and "kicking tires" on Kadri while hoping that Tkachuk doesn't take his QO and run.

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IMO in order he wanted: huge contract from Philly; Some other contract from Philly; Huge contract elsewhere; Monster contract from Calgary; some other contract elsewhere; huge contract from Calgary (arguably this was way higher in priority for Gross and maybe even Johnny but not for the fam). He managed to get an offer of the last one and wound up settling for second last.

I think Gaudreau is pretty unhappy with the outcome, despite the brave face.

He didn't want to be in Calgary and the agent got him within 750K/yr of the best offer. It's a lot of money, but I wouldn't call that a loss. The agent is a contractor to the player, if Johnny wanted to stay he wouldn't have told Gross to keep pushing and directed him to draft the rumored $80-84 mil contract from Calgary.

It's been talked about a bit, but holy smokes do I wish I didn't have border restrictions and 5 hr flights to contend with to see my family in Alberta. It's like me leaving Texas to be "close" to home in Vancouver. It's not down the street, but there's a dozen direct flights per day (only 90 min), no border restrictions, it opens up a lot of possibilities to see family that I've missed out on for 2+ years.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Gross won. His client got what he wanted. He didn't get the massive payout that was there, but his client did get what he wanted. More importantly, the Flames lost. They got nothing out of the whole mess. So in the measure between agent and team, agent unfortunately won.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL Gross did not win. His client didn't get what he wanted either, unless you believe him about Columbus. He settled for a second rate choice at lower money than he expected.

That's one of the many reasons Gross was trying to do damage control the next day.

Gross won? don't think so. I don't think anyone is terribly proud about how this all played out and is patting themselves on the back thinking they 'won'.

Not only did he lose money, I suspect he has lost face among the GM's of the league with the way this was handled. Conroy was a former client of Gross. How do you think this left Conroy feeling? It's a small community and I'm fairly sure this is something other organizations will take note of.

This was a massive miscalculation by the Graudreau team through and through. I think Gross was negotiating in good faith only to have the rug pulled out from under him by a last min. change of heart from his client and he didn't have time to counsel him appropriately. Honestly, I think Gaudreau panicked and Gross's hands were tied. Gross had it set up on a tee for Gaudreau and he couldn't commit.

How did Gross win? His client left a staggering amount of money on the table, he is leaving a competitive hockey team for one that has almost zero chance of being competitive for the next season, at least, and his desire to play close to home also doesn't seem to have been satisfied. What did they win, exactly? They are back in the eastern time zone, I guess?

I think I first heard this from Bob McCowan on PT Sports; 'Don't ###### with happy'. Something got into Gaudreau's head between the playoff exit and him signing with Columbus.