[Signing] Gaudreau to Columbus (7 x $9.75 million)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

The real world doesn't have heads of organizations go "Well I hope this happens, but if not, we're ####ed" and keep their jobs.

Especially when that head has nothing to show for his 8 years being the leader.

The real world doesn't have a salary cap, employees who can be traded (but only a limited number of companies they can go to), and mainly doesn't have term limited contracts that limit parties' ability to renegotiate, terminate or amend.

And yeah, business organizations hope for or against stuff with the downside being "the company is screwed" all the time. Or did you miss the real estate crash, the oil crash or interest rate hikes.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by blankall

How often do "sign and trades" actually occur? What's the incentive for that for Gaudreau? What's the incentive for Philly?

Going to Philly. Getting Gaudreau.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Going to Philly. Getting Gaudreau.

Philly could have gotten Gaudreau for free. They declined.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The real world doesn't have a salary cap, employees who can be traded (but only a limited number of companies they can go to), and mainly doesn't have term limited contracts that limit parties' ability to renegotiate, terminate or amend.

And yeah, business organizations hope for or against stuff with the downside being "the company is screwed" all the time. Or did you miss the real estate crash, the oil crash or interest rate hikes.

Well I guess we agree that the Flames are pretty much the equivalent of the real estate and oil crashes under Treliving.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Going to Philly. Getting Gaudreau.

We literally just saw Philly decline to sign him as a UFA, with no assets needed to be given up. Why is Philly paying some big haul to acquire Gaudreau in a sign and trade in 2021?

If Gaudreau signs an extension in 2021, it limits his ability to get to Philly, as the Flyers would now need to give up a bunch of assets to acquire him.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Gaudreau staying and Gaudreau leaving are franchise altering situations. If your draft plan doesn't change around that, who you keep, which direction your going, who's on the table, who isn't, then that's a worrisome sign.

Imagine if the Oilers had a situation where they didn't know if McDavid was with them next year or not but they still had the same plan regardless, we would be laughing at them non-stop if McDavid left and they were still all-in to win. Flames do it though and well that's just because we don't have a psychic for a GM apparently.

There were 8 significant trades at the draft (+ 2 cap dumps in Kassian/Mrazek):

Georgiev
DeBrincat
Romanov
Dach
Husso
Vanecek
Deangelo
Kunin

We can cross out the 3 involving goalies.

Romanov and Dach both went for 13 OA. Maybe we could have tried to trade a similar player for that pick...but we don't really have any similar and that kind of move wouldn't really have any impact on Johnny.

Kunin - nothing special; arb eligible RFA, we didn't have picks to spare.


I guess you could weave an intricate web of possibilities with OTT or PHI instead of the trades they made, but I don't really see anything significant. Or we can invent trades that BT missed out on, which is the ultimate fool's errand.

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Hey, Gaudreau isn't signed, he clearly wants to go to Philly, maybe a sign-and-trade where it's win-win-win could work during the draft! But Philly goes out and gets DeAngelo shortly after the draft and now that's off the table. A lost opportunity because Treliving wanted to gamble on the least sure gamble he could make.

Again, you don't need to be a psychic to have a contingency plan or set deadlines to ensure the best possible outcome for your organization when depending on situations out of your control. This wasn't some unforeseen circumstance that no one could have predicted.

Except PHI didn't particularly seem to want him and were more focused on their blue line.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So when can we blame Treliving for something? 8 years, one second round win (game, not series) no prospects, best player just left for nothing, new best player could take a QO and head out in a year too. If that happens do we just have to say that Treliving did his best but he wasn't a psychic?

If he had a better track record, he could be given some leeway, but even if Gaudreau decide to stay, Treliving has done far less than other GMs who have been shown the door.

Lots of things.

Coaching hires
UFA contracts
Cap management

I think most GMs make mistakes, first off, but those are the areas where he hamstrung himself to one degree or another.

But with Gaudreau the org and not the GM likely made the call on keeping Gaudreau last summer, and 50% chance at a star player is certainly worth 5% chance of the same if he moved his rights for a 4th rounder last week.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Listen to the Flames talk podcasts from last week and Steinberg touched on a lot of stuff from the negotiating to thinking Johnny was super close to signing, to the Flames doubling back on Wednesday.

Any interest cliff notes you can share?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The real world doesn't have a salary cap, employees who can be traded (but only a limited number of companies they can go to), and mainly doesn't have term limited contracts that limit parties' ability to renegotiate, terminate or amend.

And yeah, business organizations hope for or against stuff with the downside being "the company is screwed" all the time. Or did you miss the real estate crash, the oil crash or interest rate hikes.

Every time someone mentions things like "in the real world..." or "in business..." in relation to the job of a GM, risk assessment, asset management, or anything like that, it's almost always immediately clear that they have no practical understanding of or on-job experience with decision making in any corporate realm related to any of those things.

The idea that executives never take risks where the risk of it not paying off is damaging or costly in the range of hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars, or that anyone who did would be immediately fired for taking that risk, is laughably naive.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Was that friend Mike Commodore? Because he's having quite the day on Twitter.

No wasn’t Commodore.

My pal thought of all the issues, Covid was very likely at the top of the list. He didn’t mention the arena.

Covid just sucks on so many levels.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Was that friend Mike Commodore? Because he's having himself a day on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549055996760244224

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549056124405563394

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549056214427787264

Mike Commodore throwing bombs lol

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Was that friend Mike Commodore? Because he's having himself a day on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549055996760244224

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549056124405563394

https://twitter.com/user/status/1549056214427787264

Yeah...

Does anyone really think Tkachuk is going to stay in Calgary?

He also just watched his 115 point line mate leave town, if all that other stuff wasn't enough on it's own.

And people piss and moan about Treliving non-stop when the guy builds a 111 point team despite the deck being stacked against him.

Kadri? Nope, don't want to go there
Fox? Nope, don't want to go there
Gaudreau? Nope, gonna take a $15 million haircut and go to an 80 point team in Columbus instead

lol

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lots of things.

Coaching hires
UFA contracts
Cap management

I think most GMs make mistakes, first off, but those are the areas where he hamstrung himself to one degree or another.

But with Gaudreau the org and not the GM likely made the call on keeping Gaudreau last summer, and 50% chance at a star player is certainly worth 5% chance of the same if he moved his rights for a 4th rounder last week.

You keep saying 4th rounder as though that's what was on the table for Gaudreau. That's about as speculative as anything I've said.

But I don't care about the asset they received for Gaudreau (if any) but the direction they would go without Gaudreau. I said it before the draft. This was a franchise altering situation and the path should have been clear. If they didn't have Gaudreau next season, they should be rebuilding and that starts at the draft. Veterans should have been on the table and the team entering a rebuild so they do have assets in the upcoming years especially if they can draft someone like Bedard. Instead they were left in limbo and the GM has to take some responsibility for that.

If Treliving is simply hamstrung by the owners, fair enough, but then who cares who is puppet in the GM role. It's like Lowe and Katz up north, I don't even know who they pretend to call the GM up there.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Does anyone really think Tkachuk is going to stay in Calgary?

Treliving.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

You keep saying 4th rounder as though that's what was on the table for Gaudreau. That's about as speculative as anything I've said.

But I don't care about the asset they received for Gaudreau (if any) but the direction they would go without Gaudreau. I said it before the draft. This was a franchise altering situation and the path should have been clear. If they didn't have Gaudreau next season, they should be rebuilding and that starts at the draft. Veterans should have been on the table and the team entering a rebuild so they do have assets in the upcoming years especially if they can draft someone like Bedard. Instead they were left in limbo and the GM has to take some responsibility for that.

If Treliving is simply hamstrung by the owners, fair enough, but then who cares who is puppet in the GM role. It's like Lowe and Katz up north, I don't even know who they pretend to call the GM up there.

4th is about the highest anyone has paid for UFA rights since Bouwmeester.

But ya, I'm sure if Tre started a fire sale at the draft GMs would have been tripping over themselves to give us great value for our veterans. Just like they did for:

Georgiev
DeBrincat
Romanov
Dach
Husso
Vanecek
Deangelo
Kunin


IF the Flames get dragged into a rebuild, they'll get equal or better assets selling at TDLs.

[AndyM]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Mike Commodore throwing bombs lol

Why does Commodore live part-time in Calgary if he dislikes Canada so much?

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah...

Does anyone really think Tkachuk is going to stay in Calgary?

He also just watched his 115 point line mate leave town, if all that other stuff wasn't enough on it's own.

And people piss and moan about Treliving non-stop when the guy builds a 111 point team despite the deck being stacked against him.

Kadri? Nope, don't want to go there
Fox? Nope, don't want to go there
Gaudreau? Nope, gonna take a $15 million haircut and go to an 80 point team in Columbus instead

lol

Reminds me of the Gary Bettman lunch I attended when he was in town years ago.

During the Q&A this guy gets up and says “Mr Bettman my name is Joe Smith and I’m from a Winnipeg and I would like to know when the NHL is moving back to Winnipeg?”

Bettman doesn’t miss a beat and replies “Well Joe, when are you moving back?!”

Brought the house down.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

The real world doesn't have heads of organizations go "Well I hope this happens, but if not, we're ####ed" and keep their jobs.

Especially when that head has nothing to show for his 8 years being the leader.

Nice moving of the goal posts. Back to what you are actually arguing about, which as far as I can tell is: Treliving should have been a mind reader so that we could have gotten a 3rd round pick for Gaudreau.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah...
Does anyone really think Tkachuk is going to stay in Calgary?

Tkachuk will stay for the right contract but not sure the Flames will want it

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

IF the Flames get dragged into a rebuild, they'll get equal or better assets selling at TDLs.

No, they will be handcuffed yet again, just like they were at the draft. They'll be competing for the last Wildcard spot or last Pacific spot and not good enough to be buyers but not bad enough to be sellers. If they make the playoffs they'll likely be out in 6 and if they don't, they'll likely be drafting the 15th overall.

Repeat cycle for 20 years.

If losing your best near-Hart level player doesn't drag them into a rebuild, nothing will.