Coronavirus All Purpose Thread: moving on?

[Sliver]

Here's another newsflash, Azure. Covid was also a disaster for healthcare workers. And people who contracted the disease. And people who lost their job. And people who like to socialize. Etc.

I think this falls under the category of, "no ####, Sherlock."

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Here's another newsflash, Azure. Covid was also a disaster for healthcare workers. And people who contracted the disease. And people who lost their job. And people who like to socialize. Etc.

I think this falls under the category of, "no ####, Sherlock."

“Was COVID actually a big deal?”….

[CliffFletcher]

Different countries, states/provinces, and school districts took different approaches to closing schools and going remote. The number of in-class days lost varied dramatically depending on where a child was. For instance, the issue was much more politicized in the U.S. than in Europe.

Now we have more data from around the world on the impacts, both on child welfare and community spread. We’re better equipped to judge the tradeoffs in future contagion outbreaks. I expect that knowing what we know now, going forward schools will be the last institutions closed.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Different countries, states/provinces, and school districts took different approaches to closing schools and going remote. The number of in-class days lost varied dramatically depending on where a child was. For instance, the issue was much more politicized in the U.S. than in Europe.

Now we have more data from around the world on the impacts, both on child welfare and community spread. We’re better equipped to judge the tradeoffs in future contagion outbreaks. I expect that knowing what we know now, going forward schools will be the last institutions closed.

We closed schools, shuttered learning, but kept bars, restaurants and sporting events open. We even kept doing that a year after pandemic started, and only on the brink of a complete breakdown of the health care system were any restrictions put into place to keep everything from burning down.

End of the day, closing schools was seen as an acceptable option, while keeping other non-essential places open wasn't deemed to be an issue. This is an issue of priorities, and obviously an issue of political stupidity.

We also knew pretty early on that kids weren't really affected. Hell, we knew anyone under 40 with no pre-existing conditions had basically a negligible risk factor.

So I don't think its quite fair to say in July of 2022, oh we learned. Maybe in July of 2020 that would have been correct.

But hey, water under the bridge. Sucks if your kid was set back years in development.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Azure

We closed schools, shuttered learning, but kept bars, restaurants and sporting events open. We even kept doing that a year after pandemic started, and only on the brink of a complete breakdown of the health care system were any restrictions put into place to keep everything from burning down.

End of the day, closing schools was seen as an acceptable option, while keeping other non-essential places open wasn't deemed to be an issue. This is an issue of priorities, and obviously an issue of political stupidity.

We also knew pretty early on that kids weren't really affected. Hell, we knew anyone under 40 with no pre-existing conditions had basically a negligible risk factor.

So I don't think its quite fair to say in July of 2022, oh we learned. Maybe in July of 2020 that would have been correct.

But hey, water under the bridge. Sucks if your kid was set back years in development.

I don't think that's really true beyond the early stages in the pandemic. After that efforts were made to keep schools open even when everything else was closed and everyone else had mandatory work from home (aside from closing the extra week at Christmas). The one part that was problematic perhaps was quarantine of entire classes if there was a positive case. In 2020/2021 my son was probably at school from home about a third of the year. In 2021/2022 he was only home for the extra week at Christmas.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

We closed schools, shuttered learning, but kept bars, restaurants and sporting events open. We even kept doing that a year after pandemic started, and only on the brink of a complete breakdown of the health care system were any restrictions put into place to keep everything from burning down.

End of the day, closing schools was seen as an acceptable option, while keeping other non-essential places open wasn't deemed to be an issue. This is an issue of priorities, and obviously an issue of political stupidity.

We also knew pretty early on that kids weren't really affected. Hell, we knew anyone under 40 with no pre-existing conditions had basically a negligible risk factor.

So I don't think its quite fair to say in July of 2022, oh we learned. Maybe in July of 2020 that would have been correct.

But hey, water under the bridge. Sucks if your kid was set back years in development.

I understand your frustration, but there are so many variables at play in this situation, it was never reasonable for the government to get it right. And I am no UCP/Kenney fan, but mistakes were always going to be made. On one hand you hurt/disadvantage one group and on the other hand you hurt/disadvantage another group.

Schools were closed because online learning was viewed as a reasonable alternative. I'm not saying it worked well, but it was an option. Also, people love to mention that kids weren't impacted by Covid as much as others, but there are MANY adults that work in schools who are over the age of 40 and have risk factors. In my school (I'm a teacher) we struggled from staff shortages like crazy and bordered on closing the school several times. In fact if the government hadn't closed schools at certain points when they did my school would have been forced to close regardless. We had too many staff out, with not enough replacements. It was a near disaster for us and I assume other schools as well. Plus, there were many in the educational system calling for the schools to close earlier and more often, but the government kept them open. Hell, we went stretches where 1/4 of our buses didn't run because drivers were out and we couldn't get replacements. It was a mess. Bus drivers in my division tend to be elderly retired types or "at-risk" people for Covid. So, again, it wasn't always about keeping the kids safe. It was about staffing issues, community spread and hospital pressures.

As such, closing schools was never really about protecting the kids, but more stopping community spread. And as a teacher of 11+ years I can assure you schools are breeding grounds for viruses. Kids hug, kiss, share drinks, share food, socialize way too closely. They still did these things with mask requirements, because theyre just kids and they don't think fully about it. It is what it is, but the notion that schools spread literally every other illness besides Covid is false.

As far as restaurants/businesses, etc, the government was also routinely criticized for closing them at all. People's livelihoods were destroyed by closing these things. Closing schools did not impact people's ability to earn income (other than needs for daycare). Regardless, I'm not even sure schools were closed more often than some businesses were? I honestly don't know the answer, but it felt like businesses were closed more often than schools. I could be wrong though.

As far as your closing statement "But hey, water under the bridge. Sucks if your kid was set back years in development." Could it not be flipped and say "But hey, water under the bridge. Sucks if your grandma died from Covid". Again this was always about MANY factors. The government was literally triaging throughout 2020 and 2021, and they were going to be criticized no matter what actions they took.

I taught in high schools for 11 years and taught throughout 2020 and 2021. I'm now on a leave, but I can assure you the vast majority of the kids that I'm aware of will be okay. They will find their way. Kids/People go through all sorts of crises and issues in life and the vast majority are able to overcome and prosper. The majority of the kids I saw struggle during Covid times in schools were already massively struggling due to other factors such as poor home life, abuse, etc. It sucks, and these people need our support, but the VAST majority (95%+) of kids rolled with the punches and are doing okay. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but in my rural Alberta high school the kids are okay and will emerge from Covid stronger for it. They may have missed out on some deeper understandings of the History, English, Math or Science, but they've gained some amazing insights into resiliency and perseverance that many other generations did not.

Your frustration is valid and I sympathize, but I'm not sure what else you wanted the government to do given the facts at the time? Hell, they're still being criticized for not closing schools earlier and more often. In fact, schools in Alberta were arguably open for most of the school years after 2020. Other than the March 2020 shutdown, schools were only closed for a few weeks here and there.

Covid was a disaster on many levels, but I feel pretty confident that Canada as a whole came through it fairly well considering how some other Western-developed nations fared. People were obviously hurt and disadvantaged all across our society, including kids, the elderly, the chronically ill, business owners, workers (especially retail), healthcare workers, etc. I can guarantee that if the government had kept schools open the entire time, they be criticized by another group for doing it. It was never going to be a perfect response, and that's okay.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I don't think that's really true beyond the early stages in the pandemic. After that efforts were made to keep schools open even when everything else was closed and everyone else had mandatory work from home (aside from closing the extra week at Christmas). The one part that was problematic perhaps was quarantine of entire classes if there was a positive case. In 2020/2021 my son was probably at school from home about a third of the year. In 2021/2022 he was only home for the extra week at Christmas.

I think its a fair statement to say that Canada fared better than other countries when it comes to schooling, though there are countries that fared even better, but also we truly don't know yet how much development was set back.

A few things. The COVID risk factor for kids is essentially non-existent. Despite the paranoia, I think it was quite clear to see that early on. The Swedish or Nordic model for education during the pandemic proved to work much better than the shut everything down model. You can say that 'oh we didn't know', but not sure that is fair if they had access to the same info we did, and made different decisions in regards to schooling.

This is from Dec 2020.

“What we have learned about schooling during the time of COVID is clear: the benefits of keeping schools open, far outweigh the costs of closing them, and nationwide closures of schools should be avoided at all costs”, Robert Jenkins, UNICEF Global Chief of Education, said in a statement.

Closing schools did not help in the fight against COVID-19, but simply removed a system that provides children with support, food and safety as well as learning, UNICEF said. Instead of shutting them, governments should prioritize school reopening and make classrooms as safe as possible.

“Evidence shows that schools are not the main drivers of this pandemic. Yet, we are seeing an alarming trend whereby governments are once again closing down schools as a first recourse rather than a last resort. In some cases, this is being done nationwide, rather than community by community, and children are continuing to suffer the devastating impacts on their learning, mental and physical well-being and safety”, Mr. Jenkins said.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1079462

So again, not sure its fair to say, 'oh we didn't know.' It was pretty obvious already by Oct - Dec of 2020 that the decisions being made around schools being closed, or learning being restricted were a disaster, and were almost certainly not being made to 'protect the children.' We are now 1.5 years later, and it is still a mess in many, many countries.

Secondly, early studies about COVID spread on airplanes proved that proper air filtration could reduce COVID spread dramatically, and such methods should have been used in schools. Before everyone wants to run and say it takes time & money to do that, go look up the tons of examples of home made filters that were proven to be effective in reducing spread and providing effective filtration.

Were these methods used to get kids back into schools? No. Here on CP and everywhere else fear & paranoia over ruled practical and effective solutions against COVID spread. And to be clear, that is what we were fighting against. Schools spreading COVID. Not kids getting COVID, because we all knew the extremely limited risk factor. Important point that conveniently got ignored by the lock everything down crowd.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think its a fair statement to say that Canada fared better than other countries when it comes to schooling, though there are countries that fared even better, but also we truly don't know yet how much development was set back.

A few things. The COVID risk factor for kids is essentially non-existent. Despite the paranoia, I think it was quite clear to see that early on. The Swedish or Nordic model for education during the pandemic proved to work much better than the shut everything down model. You can say that 'oh we didn't know', but not sure that is fair if they had access to the same info we did, and made different decisions in regards to schooling.

This is from Dec 2020.



https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/12/1079462

So again, not sure its fair to say, 'oh we didn't know.' It was pretty obvious already by Oct - Dec of 2020 that the decisions being made around schools being closed, or learning being restricted were a disaster, and were almost certainly not being made to 'protect the children.' We are now 1.5 years later, and it is still a mess in many, many countries.

Secondly, early studies about COVID spread on airplanes proved that proper air filtration could reduce COVID spread dramatically, and such methods should have been used in schools. Before everyone wants to run and say it takes time & money to do that, go look up the tons of examples of home made filters that were proven to be effective in reducing spread and providing effective filtration.

Were these methods used to get kids back into schools? No. Here on CP and everywhere else fear & paranoia over ruled practical and effective solutions against COVID spread. And to be clear, that is what we were fighting against. Schools spreading COVID. Not kids getting COVID, because we all knew the extremely limited risk factor. Important point that conveniently got ignored by the lock everything down crowd.

So who are you upset with? The "lock it down crowd" or the government? Or both? I'm struggling to understand the issue. Schools in Alberta were closed from March 2020 to end of June 2020. You're quoting an article from December 2020. After December of 2020, I believe schools in Alberta were only closed for 2 weeks in one schools year and 1 week in the next school year. Some classes faced closures due to outbreaks in those classes. Also, some schools closed due to staffing issues, as I mentioned in my post above.

So schools were closed for about 15-16 weeks in 2020, but you're upset with the couple of weeks (2-3) in the two previous schools years? And I'm struggling to understand who you're upset with? "The lock it down crowd" as you put it, doesn't make government policy or spending. Thus, you must be upset with Kenney and the UCP?

Because ultimately they're the ones that didn't offer more funding for ventilation, or follow schools guidelines you wanted.

Ultimately, I'll stick with this: the March 2020-June 2020 closure was the early days of the pandemic and yes it had a negative impact on learning. But as I said in my long post above (which you seemed to have ignored) the VAST majority of kids are okay and will be come out of it okay. Beyond that there were only a couple extra weeks in each of the next two schools years.

If a 2 week shutdown of school is this devastating then really we need to seriously look at getting rid of spring break, Christmas break and summer holidays, because they must be devastating for the kids and learning. The kids should just be in school constantly, for their own good.

[b1crunch]

This is just my opinion based on my interactions with the students that I taught but most kids did not necessarily struggle from school closures. They struggled instead with things like anxiety/depression due to concerns for friends and family members due to issues such as Covid/Loss of Work/etc.

The pandemic was devastating for the metal health of some kids, but closing schools for a couple week here and there was not the main driver. It was the societal fear around Covid, the loss of work for family members, the financial hardships, the feelings of helplessness and dread, etc.

Think of the kids fleeing Ukraine in the last several weeks. It's not their lack of knowledge around Language Arts, Science, Math, etc that would be concerning. It's their mental state and loss of safety.

That's the biggest impact on our kids, and keeping the schools open for an extra couple weeks in 2021 wasn't going to fix that. It'll take time, and support.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Not too bad in countries like Canada, the UK, and Japan though, which is nice to know.

Exactly. Jurisdictions that closed schools primarily during the pre-vaccine era and only when it was really out of hand saw little negative effect in learning outcomes; what learning was lost due to closures was largely made up for in the period following.

And the regions that did close for significant periods of time tended to be in places where multi-generational households are common. It's a lot easier to let it rip through schools when you can isolate your elderly compared to when you're all living under the same roof and the older population is relied on for child care. And I'm sure if you asked people in those countries how they'd weigh protecting their elderly family members from COVID vs. global GDP being 0.9% lower 20 years later, they'd still clearly opt for the former.


As an aside, I do find it interesting how in the places where this issue is most politically charged, the demographic that screams the loudest about the abject disaster of distance learning is also the one that is overwhelmingly more likely to home school their kids. Apparently the perils of learning at home and the lack of socialization that comes with it pales in comparison to the damages of a liberal education.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by b1crunch

The pandemic was devastating for the metal health of some kids, but closing schools for a couple week here and there was not the main driver. It was the societal fear around Covid, the loss of work for family members, the financial hardships, the feelings of helplessness and dread, etc.

Those might be your personal observations. But the studies on the impact of school closures and remote learning on the welfare of children cite:

* The loss of a safe space for children from distressed households.

* The effects of social isolation during crucial stages of development.

* The long-term effects of learning loss, now estimated to be one-third to half of a school year in rich countries.

* The disproportionate effect of all of the above on disadvantaged and less educated households.

None of this is a surprise to the paediatrics associations the world over that implored governments not to close schools. Now that we have data showing the harm has been even greater than the experts feared, hopefully we will recalculate the tradeoffs the next time we’re faced with a serious contagion. For instance, we should prepare contingencies to keep schools open even when 25 per cent of teachers are absent.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Those might be your personal observations. But the studies on the impact of school closures and remote learning on the welfare of children cite:

* The loss of a safe space for children from distressed households.

* The effects of social isolation during crucial stages of development.

* The long-term effects of learning loss, now estimated to be one-third to half of a school year in rich countries.

* The disproportionate effect of all of the above on disadvantaged and less educated households.

None of this is a surprise to the paediatrics associations the world over that implored governments not to close schools. Now that we have data showing the harm has been even greater than the experts feared, hopefully we will recalculate the tradeoffs the next time we’re faced with a serious contagion. For instance, we should prepare contingencies to keep schools open even when 25 per cent of teachers are absent.

I'm repeating myself from my earlier posts, but what you said is true of the March 2020 to June 2020 school shutdown. However, Azure was upset with school shutdowns AFTER December of 2020, to which I pointed out that is was generally limited to a few weeks in 2 years. Yes, some schools closed due to staff shortages and outbreaks, but these were generally limited and short-lived shutdowns. So, my overarching point was: other than the initial March 2020 to June 2020 shutdown, the government did not close schools for more than a week here or there. These are not significant closures and would not be significant towards any of the points you made. Again, if closing schools for 2 weeks due to Covid in 2021 is that harmful then we as a society seriously need to look at getting rid of Spring Break, Summer Break and Christmas Break, because they would likely have all of the same impacts.

So, it would appear that in Alberta we are aware of the issues and did our best to not close schools after the early and unknown days of the pandemic. I'm not talking about schools or impacts in other countries, because I live in Alberta and reference and care about what happens here.

So, why are some people still getting mad about this? We've learned that prolonged shutdowns are negative, and we havent done one in 2 years, yet here we with some people still upset that it happened? I'm seriously confused. Going back to what Sliver said a few post back, of course the pandemic was bad for kids and their learning. It was terrible for lots of people across our society. The early days of the pandemic were wild and unknown, and I'm hard pressed to place blame on any government for their response during those first 4-6 months.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Those might be your personal observations. But the studies on the impact of school closures and remote learning on the welfare of children cite:

* The loss of a safe space for children from distressed households.

* The effects of social isolation during crucial stages of development.

* The long-term effects of learning loss, now estimated to be one-third to half of a school year in rich countries.

* The disproportionate effect of all of the above on disadvantaged and less educated households.

None of this is a surprise to the paediatrics associations the world over that implored governments not to close schools. Now that we have data showing the harm has been even greater than the experts feared, hopefully we will recalculate the tradeoffs the next time we’re faced with a serious contagion. For instance, we should prepare contingencies to keep schools open even when 25 per cent of teachers are absent.

Your points made here are all correct to some degree, but with the emphasis placed on "disadvantaged and less educated households." This is the key. In my school and across my division we did a study to research the impact on kids and what we found was the high achievers were okay and generally not impacted (educationally) by any of the time lost in school. The "middle of the pack kids" were also not impacted to any high degree. They experienced some gaps in learning but nothing that couldn't be overcome. It was the kids that were already struggling that struggled worse. This was the big educational harm of the pandemic and school closures. And it wasn't educational in the sense of how many would think. It's not like their IQ slipped or something (because that's not possible).

The big issue we found with the struggling kids was that they gave up. After schools reopened, these kids struggled to attend and when they did attend they struggled to stay engaged. It's like they forgot how to do the routine of school.

Now these are the kids who are coming from very poor homes, or abusive homes, or terrible situations, etc. In my division, we roughly estimated this to be about 5% of kids. This is terrible and disheartening and needs our immediate attention as a society, but as I said in my post above, the VAST majority of kids came through it okay. I'd even suggest that the VAST majority of our kids gained some amazing life experience by going through the pandemic in their formative years.

I also question the idea of the loss of "half a year of learning" and what that actually looks like. Kids learn in all sorts of ways, and I would wager to bet most of it doesn't occur in the classroom. As I stated above, yes this generation of kids missed out on some deeper understandings of science, math, history, etc. but think of the life experience they gained that other generations did not. They likely pushed themselves in ways they didn't think possible or got to spend time doing other things they loved. These are learnings that will stay with them for the rest of their lives and are likely more meaningful than a teachers lesson on any given topic. I know this isn't true of all kids but just because they couldn't attend school doesn't mean they weren't learning and growing. It happens whether they sit in a classroom or not. In fact, some kids thrive the best outside of the classroom.

Again, I'm repeating myself, but in my mind the great loss of the pandemic for kids wasn't educationally. It was in mental health. I think I take it for granted now as an adult, but for most kids the world is a safe place because of the adults and structures/institutions that exist in it. (Police/Fire/Hospital/etc.) During the pandemic, many adults were scared and many of these institutions were overwhelmed and the news was dominated by scary and unknown possibilities. If many adults were facing panic/anxiety/depression/fear/dread during this time, think of how it must have impacted our kids? Their foundation (adults/institutions) were rocked and it probably felt like the world was ending for stretches. I fear that this loss of safety and security will have long-lasting impacts on the mental state's of our kids, because as a society we don't seem to be focused on it. Rather we're debating and arguing about the loss of 5-6 months of schooling and its impact on their learning.

I mean, my division was somewhat aware of this. For the start of the 2020/2021 school year (after the big school shutdown in the year prior) our division sent out a notice to all staff that it wanted us to focus less on the educational losses of the previous year and focus more on making school fun/safe/inviting. They were worried that we'd place more stress on the kids if we tried to "make up" all the lost learning. I guess people inside of the school system are focused on the mental state of the kids, but it feels like the general society keeps talking about some educational/learning loss when really that was negligible or at least not the biggest outcome of the school closures.

I know everything I stated is only from my experience, my school and my school division but I suspect it was a similar reality for most across this province.

Just my thoughts. Sorry I post so much about this, but its obviously something I care a lot about.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

For instance, we should prepare contingencies to keep schools open even when 25 per cent of teachers are absent.

What does that look like for you?

In my division we faced staff shortages across all types of staff, not just teachers.

For example, we had 25% bus driver shortages and kids couldn't even get to the school. Over 90% of our kids were bussed, so when we couldn't get drivers, we basically lost a giant chunk of the school.

We also had to tell the kids in our "Life Skills" room to stay home for a few days here and there because we had massive shortages due to Educational Assistants being out with Covid. Some of our Life Skills kids are high needs and require 1 to 1 support for school/their own safety, so if we didn't have the staff we couldn't have them in the building.

We also struggled to get subs for teachers because many subs are older and retired teachers, so they weren't too keen on going into a classroom at that time.

A few times we had to close our cafeteria because the staff for it were out. While this wasn't a huge deal because kids can bring food from home, it still hit hard for some kids who relied on it.

Any school shutdowns in 2021 or 2022 were focused on these issues. The government would extend Christmas Break by 2 weeks or something. This wasn't done to keep kids safe. It was done, so school staff could all get over their Covid isolation/sickness and get back to work. They basically gave us all a period of isolation so schools could reset and get all staff back.

I honestly don't know the solutions to running schools when you have major staff shortages. Any idea I can come up with in my mind would severely impact student learning and that leads to "why are we even doing this"?

[calculoso]

Alberta school mask experiment

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547294803250913280

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547294806396743681

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547294808133120001

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547294812948140032

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547294816047812610

https://twitter.com/user/status/1547328485164609536

[Just a guy]

I am waiting the correlation is not causation comments and the demand for peer review. That is the standard isn’t it?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Just a guy

I am waiting the correlation is not causation comments and the demand for peer review. That is the standard isn’t it?

Correlation is certainly something to consider

In jurisdictions which did not enforce mask mandates were behaviours sufficiently different across the jurisdiction to cause more opportunity for spread?

So what factor is just living in a jurisdiction where it’s politically expedient to not have a mask mandate.

Also those slides in the document don’t have the study linked behind them and are a snap shot of one day. They also don’t account for community vaccine levels making them essentially useless.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Here's another newsflash, Azure. Covid was also a disaster for healthcare workers. And people who contracted the disease. And people who lost their job. And people who like to socialize. Etc. and people that lost family to Covid.

I think this falls under the category of, "no ####, Sherlock."

added to your good post

[activeStick]

Very bad situation in Australia right now.

Hospitals across the country are “bursting at the seams” as the number of people being admitted with Covid-19#reaches record levels#in several states.

Western Australia recorded its highest number of Covid hospitalisations to date on Thursday, with Queensland also expected to surpass its January peak in coming days.

“Our members report ‘dark days’ as a result of these pressures and many are understandably reducing their shifts, with some retiring early where they can to manage the burnout and exhaustion,” Fitzpatrick said.

Queensland Nurses and Midwives’ Union assistant secretary, Kate Veach, said these pressures were “intensified with many staff unable to work due to being unwell or off work to care for unwell family members”.

“QNMU members across all sectors continue to report stress, burn out and exhaustion associated with understaffing and ongoing overtime performed to ensure patients and residents are cared for,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...several-states

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Very bad situation in Australia right now.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...several-states

Could be what we have in store for the winter, though also perhaps not as we have more natural immunity than Australia (or NZ).