Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Howie_16]

Originally Posted by amethyst

but in true ucp fashion, they will end up doing something that makes life worse for ordinary albertans. And those who are so desperate not to vote ndp will refuse to see it for what it is until after the election.

fyp

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by Dion

This is not a criticism of Notley per say but you can be sure she would have spent a lot more money on health care to shore up the problems we have right now. Money on EMT, doctors and nurses. Plus making sure they were rewarded fairly.

Doesn't come across like a criticism at all, in fact that's what a government is supposed to do.


I bet Notley's government would have had a bigger surplus than the UCP though. It's amazing how much health care you can buy for the gazillion dollars that Kenney grifted wasted.

[Delgar]

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

[Delgar]

There are some good NDP MLAs, more than last time. They have Notley, Bilous, Feehan (super great guy, very principled, very intelligent), Phillips, and there are other bright lights in that caucus. But that doesn't mean every Albertan should agree with their political views.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

How democratic is voting the in the same party 47 of 51 years?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

What are the fundamentals in the platform of the Alberta NDP that you find concerning or that you feel other Albertans are concerned about?

Realistically no party is likely to check off every box of how a voter would like to see issues addressed. I don’t get the sense that people are saying voting for anyone else is a sign that a person lacks intelligence etc, the sense I get is that people are saying that at this point when compared to the UCP the NDP are far and away either the better option or at the very least the lesser of two evils.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

As an NDP supporter I fully agree with this. There are also many facets of the NDP government I didn't agree with. In my opinion they governed too far right on some issue, for example I think ignoring the need of a provincial sales tax.

That doesn't make them wrong and me right, in fact I find that they governed very pragmatically with a few rookie government mistakes so I can understand the complexities of trying to govern a right wing province and slowly bring more left ideals into the mix.

There is also the very real divide in how economics should work. Economics is an art, not a science, there is no real right answers. I subscribe much more to Keynesian theory because I think it has provided the best evidence of success. I think Neoliberalism is hokum because I feel it has completely destroyed the middle class and is continually widening the wealth gap with a fake visage of success for all.

The UCP have demonstrated over their entire term that their intent is not to help the average Albertan. Life has gotten more expensive and services harder to access - and that's not even factoring in inflation.

So I don't think not voting NDP is being dumb, but I think it is dumb to try and say that voting for the NDP because the UCP are better stewards of the economy or better for the regular joe Albertan. If you are a business owner, or millionaire, voting the UCP makes sense. If you are making $50,000 and bitching that the NDP will ruin the province, then you are just willfully ignorant to actual policies and how they affect you.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are some good NDP MLAs, more than last time. They have Notley, Bilous, Feehan (super great guy, very principled, very intelligent), Phillips, and there are other bright lights in that caucus. But that doesn't mean every Albertan should agree with their political views.

No, but it is the only legitimate alternative, unless you think the Alberta Party or one of those Wildrose/Independence/whatever parties should hold the balance of power.

You have to understand, people who want an alternative to the UCP will look for the good/reasonable in the other parties, NDP or otherwise. And they'd be right to do so.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by belsarius

As an NDP supporter I fully agree with this. There are also many facets of the NDP government I didn't agree with. In my opinion they governed too far right on some issue, for example I think ignoring the need of a provincial sales tax.

That doesn't make them wrong and me right, in fact I find that they governed very pragmatically with a few rookie government mistakes so I can understand the complexities of trying to govern a right wing province and slowly bring more left ideals into the mix.

There is also the very real divide in how economics should work. Economics is an art, not a science, there is no real right answers. I subscribe much more to Keynesian theory because I think it has provided the best evidence of success. I think Neoliberalism is hokum because I feel it has completely destroyed the middle class and is continually widening the wealth gap with a fake visage of success for all.

The UCP have demonstrated over their entire term that their intent is not to help the average Albertan. Life has gotten more expensive and services harder to access - and that's not even factoring in inflation.

So I don't think not voting NDP is being dumb, but I think it is dumb to try and say that voting for the NDP because the UCP are better stewards of the economy or better for the regular joe Albertan. If you are a business owner, or millionaire, voting the UCP makes sense. If you are making $50,000 and bitching that the NDP will ruin the province, then you are just willfully ignorant to actual policies and how they affect you.

I agree with most of what you say here, but I'm curious about the bolded. I'm not sure how life has gotten more expensive for most people if you set aside inflation.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Slava

I agree with most of what you say here, but I'm curious about the bolded. I'm not sure how life has gotten more expensive for most people if you set aside inflation.

Probably Carbon Tax.

I'm also curious as to why someone would think that a Province thats running a Budget Surplus would need a Sales Tax.

Especially considering that it would just make basic goods even more expensive.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

Actually it technically is a democratic stance to think that 100% of Albertans should support the NDP as long as said people only thought that and still supported a fair vote where citizens choose for themselves.

Undemocratic would be wanting the NDP in power through means other than a democratic election, or to corrupt that election

[Harry Lime]

The UCP really have dug their own grave. Even if you take the platforms out of the equation and voted just for the person running, I can imagine only a few backbenchers are worthy of a vote. The UCP has assembled such an unlikable roster of people. The entire caucus is downright nasty.

Unfortunately the Liberal party and the Alberta party are not serious contenders.

Although there are many NDP guys in this forum, and they dip into the 'talking point frenzy' now and again, the majority of people (like me) probably just really dislike the UCP. It's not just the premier, it's rotten to the core.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Delgar

There are too many posts basically saying that if you don't support the NDP you lack intelligence, compassion, or are just making a mistake.

Guess what? The NDP has fundamentals in their platform that don't suit every voter. It is entirely legitimate to not support the NDP.

Its like some posters think 100% of Albertans should support the NDP. That's not a democratic stance.

And just for my own sake as I've skimmed the thread and maybe missed something, but you've repeatedly mentioned many mistakes and fundamentals that you don't like, but I haven't really seen you expand on that other than the royalty review.

Could you sum up with some details what other mistakes they made and what fundamentals you are against?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Probably Carbon Tax.

I'm also curious as to why someone would think that a Province thats running a Budget Surplus would need a Sales Tax.

Especially considering that it would just make basic goods even more expensive.

The surplus only exists because of resource revenues, and we know exactly what happens when those come back to Earth. We've been through this over and over. The surplus should be used to funnel craploads of cash into our medical system to fix the systemic issues that have caused it to be a money pit. This may sound counter-intuitive, but we need to spend lots of money to be able to run the system efficiently. As it exists that is impossible, and trickling little fixes here and there just dooms us to future failure.

Anyway, back to the PST. This needs to exist to have a stable revenue source for the future, as every other province has. It's credulous to depend on this boom bust unending chaos. We've been at it for a good 320 years, we really need to see more of it to decide it doesn't work?

[Ozy_Flame]

One should argue that applying a sales tax now is actually better because people are more awash with good economic times and the ability to position the province for future success.

In fact, when oil prices start to come down again, there is a source of revenue that is in place ready to handle that downturn (if executed correctly).

Doing so during hard times would likely have a more negative effect.

Let's also not pretend like a sales tax isn't coming, because it inevitable is. Every other jurisdiction has a sales tax and are also equally prospering, all things considered. Not putting one in is just kicking a problem down the road, and pretending like it's "not needed" is a myopic view of Alberta's long-term viability.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

One should argue that applying a sales tax now is actually better because people are more awash with good economic times and the ability to position the province for future success.

In fact, when oil prices start to come down again, there is a source of revenue that is in place ready to handle that downturn (if executed correctly).

Doing so during hard times would likely have a more negative effect.

Let's also not pretend like a sales tax isn't coming, because it inevitable is. Every other jurisdiction has a sales tax and are also equally prospering, all things considered. Not putting one in is just kicking a problem down the road, and pretending like it's "not needed" is a myopic view of Alberta's long-term viability.

I'm so torn. I definitely think we need a sales tax in Alberta. But I also don't like to have the government have too much money. I think it just encourages too many white elephants and government getting involved in a lot of things they really shouldn't be because "hey, we've got the money to be able to do these things".

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

I'm so torn. I definitely think we need a sales tax in Alberta. But I also don't like to have the government have too much money. I think it just encourages too many white elephants and government getting involved in a lot of things they really shouldn't be because "hey, we've got the money to be able to do these things".

The solution to that problem is over 10 years move to relying on zero dollars of resource revenue and only use the interest on heritage fund. Effectively withdraw 2-3% per year increased by inflation. Maybe start at at 75% of oil revenue. Also the way deficit and surplus reporting should be done is sans oil revenue or at least at $50 WTI adjusted oil revenue.

The government needs the revenue but it doesn’t need the surpluses.

[Monahammer]

Anyone who doesn't think we're getting Kenney bucks is fooling themselves at this point.

I wish he could at least label his vanity by making the Jason Kenney express HSR between Calgary and Edmonton a reality lol.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

One should argue that applying a sales tax now is actually better because people are more awash with good economic times and the ability to position the province for future success.

In fact, when oil prices start to come down again, there is a source of revenue that is in place ready to handle that downturn (if executed correctly).

Doing so during hard times would likely have a more negative effect.

Let's also not pretend like a sales tax isn't coming, because it inevitable is. Every other jurisdiction has a sales tax and are also equally prospering, all things considered. Not putting one in is just kicking a problem down the road, and pretending like it's "not needed" is a myopic view of Alberta's long-term viability.

Keep in mind these aren't actually the good times for many, many Albertans due to inflation and dealing with the Covid world, regardless of Oil booming. Most of us are paying $200-$400 more a month than usual on gas and goods and struggling with it.

I guess for the higher earners it's the same as any other boom, but yeah I'm not feeling that in my circles at all. Most are really cutting back and doing whatever they can to save money here and there.

[Ozy_Flame]

You're not feeling a sales tax in your circle? Get outta town.

Just like any major life change, there is no perfect time, and there's no sign it's going to get easier in the long run even if we keep kicking this down the road.

If you have to make a hard decision, you do it when times are good, so you can mitigate the damage to people and province when times are bad.

A sales tax can help fund operations, while royalty revenue can help pay back debt and fund the Heritage fund. Then when #### really hits the fan again, operations are sustained, and the larger population base year-over-year are contributing to keeping the lights on in this province.

Maybe instead they can bump corporate taxes back up too. But my guess is the UCP will never consider communist jockeying like that.