2022/2023 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Knut

Tampa also has a really good Minor league system that graduates depth guys that can play on the cheap.

Flames need to stop having 12 M 4th lines and 8 M 3rd pair. Need to graduate younger players to fill those roles. Especially if Johnny and Chucky are taking up 21 M in cap space.

This has been a Flames weakness for at least 15 years. We never have the prospect depth to fill those depth positions so we fill them with UFAs and veterans who we pick up for 3rd and 4th round picks (which in turn weakens the prospect pool).

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

6 is not high enough to be one of those foundational picks.

4 is BARELY high enough (Pietrangelo being the only Stanley Cup champion on a team where he was the highest picked player). Bennett was a mix of mismanagement and poor luck in that draft year.

IDK, how many guys outscored Tkachuk this season? pretty sure he is foundational

not to mention Gaudreau, in a hindsight draft these guys are top 3 at least. Look at the award voting, Flames had the high end talent

[Flamesfan05]

Nvm

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Johnny is like a pretty girl playing hard to get

If you don’t put your best on the table, he’ll make you wait

Some pretty girls make bad decisions but that’s how it goes

Treliving had his chance before, now he is for everyone to get lol

You calling down the woke mob on yourself

[Roof-Daddy]

The Flames drafting has been pretty solid for a while now.

If only they had found a way to draft a Norris caliber defenseman in the last handful of years it might have put them over the top this last season.

When you unearth prospects like that, especially in the middle rounds, it can alter your franchise for the better and lead to Stanley cups.

That's the way it should be though right? Teams that draft well really reap the benefits of that shrewd drafting.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The Flames drafting has been pretty solid for a while now.

If only they had found a way to draft a Norris caliber defenseman in the last handful of years it might have put them over the top this last season.

When you unearth prospects like that, especially in the middle rounds, it can alter your franchise for the better and lead to Stanley cups.

Lol if only we had a Fox in our Foxhole!

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dino7c

IDK, how many guys outscored Tkachuk this season? pretty sure he is foundational

not to mention Gaudreau, in a hindsight draft these guys are top 3 at least. Look at the award voting, Flames had the high end talent

How many teams have won Stanley Cups in recent years without top-4 draft picks on their roster?

In the cap-era, the odds are overwhelmingly against you if you don't have top-4 draft picks on your roster.

The fact we got Tkachuk at 6 would be a massive win (and Gaudreau at 104) if they were being added to a team that had a 1st and a 3rd overall already on their roster. That's how you end up a Championship quality team.

The fact that the Flames have been able to build the roster they've built without those top-4 picks is actually pretty damn impressive and why I think Treliving should be the GM of a proper Calgary Flames rebuild. I think he's a very good GM, but he just can't overcome the lack of those top of the draft players.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

How many teams have won Stanley Cups in recent years without top-4 draft picks on their roster?

In the cap-era, the odds are overwhelmingly against you if you don't have top-4 draft picks on your roster.

The fact we got Tkachuk at 6 would be a massive win (and Gaudreau at 104) if they were being added to a team that had a 1st and a 3rd overall already on their roster. That's how you end up a Championship quality team.

I agree.

And if you're scouting department is smart enough to dig up a Norris caliber Dman at 66th overall that's when you might be able to overcome not having that steady diet of top 4 picks when you start your rebuild.

Flames will have to work on that.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This has been a Flames weakness for at least 15 years. We never have the prospect depth to fill those depth positions so we fill them with UFAs and veterans who we pick up for 3rd and 4th round picks (which in turn weakens the prospect pool).

And those usually overpaid but decent UFAs end up making the team too good to suck so they never rebuild.

Like Wideman's rights for a fifth round pick and signing Hudler during the 2012 season instead of recognizing the writing on the wall with Iginla meant the Flames don't get MacKinnon because even when they traded Iginla and Bouwmeester they still were good enough to finish 6th that year. They had 42 points compared to Colorado's 39 and Florida's 36. If they would have just traded Iginla and Bouwmeester in the off-season instead of the deadline and not signed Hudler and Wideman, they are easily finishing below Florida and drafting Barkov or MacKinnon depending on how the lottery goes.

But then the very next season having already anticipated losing Iginla and Bouwmeester, they have Hudler and Wideman as downgraded replacements already ready to go. So Hudler leads the Flames the next season and instead of finishing in the basement and having the chance to get Ekblad or Draisaitl, they get Bennett.

And then the season after that Hudler and Wideman combine for 130+ points (76 and 56, respectively) and now they are bringing in more UFA vets to fill the rolls that they can't fill internally because they refuse to rebuild. So Hiller, Raymond, Engelland, Frolik, Brouwer, Neal, Smith, Versteeg, Jagr, Coleman brigade of UFAs, most quickly becoming albatrosses of contracts to deal with while trading 1st round picks for Hamilton (fine trade regardless), Hamonic and Toffoli and are extremely lucky that the Canucks decided to waste a pick with Juolevi or else they would have nearly nothing to show from the 2013-2018 drafts.

I hope the Flames don't do the same mistake if Gaudreau leaves and they try to replace him with downgraded UFAs. Forsberg would be about the only other UFA that is worth a risk to try and continue building a winning team around. If they can't sign Gaudreau or Forsberg, recognize that this is the year to tear down and rebuild. Especially with a good draft and a team that's only a year away from getting out of the biggest UFA mistakes (Neal->Lucic).

[Jiri Hrdina]

You have to consider the following when it comes to the likelihood that this team re-builds
- Darryl Sutter is their coach
- Their core is in the prime of their years
- They have a #1 goalie in his prime

How many teams in that situation have triggered a re-build?

[Purpdust]

If I am remembering correctly this years draft class is not very deep, but the 2023 draft class has three 1A prospects (Mathews/McDavid Types) and is projected to be a deep draft.

If that is the case, If Johnny will not sign, try a sign and trade for next years Draft. Then do the same with Mathew and Mange.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You have to consider the following when it comes to the likelihood that this team re-builds
- Darryl Sutter is their coach
- Their core is in the prime of their years
- They have a #1 goalie in his prime

How many teams in that situation have triggered a re-build?

Does Darryl want to stay if his best player leaves?
The core is who really now?
Markstrom is a top 10 goalie, but could be traded.

Really there's a lot of if's, and come late July we could be looking at some big changes. What if BT can't get a big UFA to sign this year? Our division is not going to be easier next year and the team is likely to be weaker if johnny walks.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

Does Darryl want to stay if his best player leaves?
The core is who really now?
Markstrom is a top 10 goalie, but could be traded.

Really there's a lot of it's and come late July we could be looking at some big changes. What if BT can't get a big UFA to sign this year? Our division is not going to be easier next year and the team is likely to be weaker.

You think Darryl is going to throw in the cowboy hat because a single player leaves? Not his style.

There is ZERO signs that this team will re-build. Those calling for it are banging their head against a wall.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Purpdust

If I am remembering correctly this years draft class is not very deep, but the 2023 draft class has three 1A prospects (Mathews/McDavid Types) and is projected to be a deep draft.

If that is the case, If Johnny will not sign, try a sign and trade for next years Draft. Then do the same with Mathew and Mange.

When has a pending UFA ever garnered a projected high 1st? If a team thinks they can sign him, they aren't trading that value to get him.

You can probably get a good 1st for Tkachuk.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

And those usually overpaid but decent UFAs end up making the team too good to suck so they never rebuild.

Like Wideman's rights for a fifth round pick and signing Hudler during the 2012 season instead of recognizing the writing on the wall with Iginla meant the Flames don't get MacKinnon because even when they traded Iginla and Bouwmeester they still were good enough to finish 6th that year. They had 42 points compared to Colorado's 39 and Florida's 36. If they would have just traded Iginla and Bouwmeester in the off-season instead of the deadline and not signed Hudler and Wideman, they are easily finishing below Florida and drafting Barkov or MacKinnon depending on how the lottery goes.

But then the very next season having already anticipated losing Iginla and Bouwmeester, they have Hudler and Wideman as downgraded replacements already ready to go. So Hudler leads the Flames the next season and instead of finishing in the basement and having the chance to get Ekblad or Draisaitl, they get Bennett.

And then the season after that Hudler and Wideman combine for 130+ points (76 and 56, respectively) and now they are bringing in more UFA vets to fill the rolls that they can't fill internally because they refuse to rebuild. So Hiller, Raymond, Engelland, Frolik, Brouwer, Neal, Smith, Versteeg, Jagr, Coleman brigade of UFAs, most quickly becoming albatrosses of contracts to deal with while trading 1st round picks for Hamilton (fine trade regardless), Hamonic and Toffoli and are extremely lucky that the Canucks decided to waste a pick with Juolevi or else they would have nearly nothing to show from the 2013-2018 drafts.

I hope the Flames don't do the same mistake if Gaudreau leaves and they try to replace him with downgraded UFAs. Forsberg would be about the only other UFA that is worth a risk to try and continue building a winning team around. If they can't sign Gaudreau or Forsberg, recognize that this is the year to tear down and rebuild. Especially with a good draft and a team that's only a year away from getting out of the biggest UFA mistakes (Neal->Lucic).

Hudler/Wideman were also a huge part of the 2015 run that lead Burke/Tre to stomp on the gas pedal. Pretty much everything is their fault!

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You think Darryl is going to throw in the cowboy hat because a single player leaves? Not his style.

There is ZERO signs that this team will re-build. Those calling for it are banging their head against a wall.

I don't know Darryl personally, but he doesn't seem like a guy that wastes his time. If he was sold on the team being one thing and it's not then ya, why can't he retire and head back to the farm.

I definitely think it's possible

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You have to consider the following when it comes to the likelihood that this team re-builds
- Darryl Sutter is their coach
- Their core is in the prime of their years
- They have a #1 goalie in his prime

How many teams in that situation have triggered a re-build?

The New York Rangers announced a rebuild in February of 2018.

Their roster was comprised of:

Head Coach: Alain Vigneault
Mats Zuccarello (30 years old)
Mika Zibanejad (24 years old)
Kevin Hayes (25 years old)
Pavel Buchnevich (22 years old)
JT Miller (24 years old)
Chris Krieder (26 years old)
Rick Nash (33 years old)
Ryan McDonagh (28 years old)
Brady Skjei (23 years old)
Kevin Shattenkirk (28 years old)
Neal Pink (22 years old)
Tony DeAngelo (21 years old)
Henrik Lundqvist (35 years old, still posting a .915)

So it's not unheard of. That team failed to come together though and they decided to end the shuffling around in mediocrity that year. In that season the Rangers sold Rick Nash (1st, 7th, Spooner, Lindgren, Beleskey), Michael Grabner (2nd, Rykov), Nick Holden (3rd), Ryan McDonagh and J.T. Miller (1st, 2nd, Howden, Hajek, Namestnikov). Then in the following season they dealt Ryan Spooner to EDM for Ryan Strome (lol @ Edmonton), Mats Zuccarello (2nd, 3rd), Adam McQuaid (4th, 7th), Kevin Hayes (Lemieux, 1st, 4th) and then in the Summer of 2019 they started to build the team back up by acquiring Jacob Trouba and Adam Fox.


...best to rebuild before the clock strikes midnight. Goes to show how quick things can change direction. Toronto did it in a similar way. We'd likely struggle because we probably won't be as lucky in the draft nor would we have the big ticket free agent signings to help (Panarin, Tavares), although a lottery pick or two does help draw talent in.

I still don't think the Flames will do this if Johnny walks...but if Tkachuk won't sign long-term ontop of Johnny leaving? Stick a fork in it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You have to consider the following when it comes to the likelihood that this team re-builds
- Darryl Sutter is their coach
- Their core is in the prime of their years
- They have a #1 goalie in his prime

How many teams in that situation have triggered a re-build?

Funny part is it does help to get high draft picks to build a cup winner - but tanking isn't really is how a team have actually gotten those picks.

The whole idea of "triggering" a re-build itself is kind of false - you just end up being bad one day and then you need to embrace it. That's how you get those picks. When you're having a bad season don't try to salvage it - just let the bad season happen.

Tampa didn't trigger a "rebuild" or "tank" when they got Stamkos or Hedman. They just ended up being bad with a roster that included St.Louis, Lecavalier, Boyle, and Richards for much of those two seasons.

Same thing with Colorado. Colorado didn't really trigger a "re-build" for Duchene. They made the playoffs in 07/08, didn't really trade anyone, but injuries in 08-09 led to a bad season and Duchene. They made the playoffs again in 09/10. They then sucked for a couple more years but it was more that they just got old. Really no different than the Flames at that time period with Iggy/Kipper. It wasn't really a tank but just the natural cycle of being bad.

They got lucky with Mackinnon. They had some injuries. ROR held out. Stastny had a terrible year. But it wasn't like they went and sold all their players and tanked - they didn't even really sell at the deadline. The Flames did more to sell at that deadline by moving Iggy and Bouwmeester, Colorado didn't sell at the deadline on anyone. But they win the lottery and get Mackinnon.

They finished with 3 fewer points than the Flames that season and that was the difference between Monahan and Mackinnon.

And honestly if the Flames were in Colorado's spot this fan base would have been calling for them to tear it down after the 16-17 season and trade everyone. It had been 8 years since drafting Duchene, 4 years with Mackinnon and they were last in the league again. How much did we make fun of the Oilers for that when they were drafting early again after already having Hall, RNH, and Yakupov? We thought we were ahead of where we were because of the magical 14-15 season, and then made the playoffs again in 16-17 but really that early success just held us back longer term.

But in that 16-17 season Duchene had 41 points in 77 games that season. Mackinnon had 53 in 82 and neither looked to live up to draft position. Hell the talk around here at the time was that Monahan was better than Mackinnon. They actually lose the lottery that year and pick 4th and that might be a blessing because maybe they don't take Makar if they pick at 1. This fanbase would have had both those guys on a stake and had wanted to move them if they had that bad of a season in Calgary.

Overall it really does take a lot of luck to build a winner in the NHL. You need to win the lottery to get one of the top 3 picks, then pick the right guy with your top 3 pick, develop them well, and even then it's probably 10 years from when you make that pick that you actually win. So you need to be patient and continue to build.

St.Louis - 11 years after Pietrangelo pick
Washington - 13 years after Ovechkin pick
Tampa - 12 years after Stamkos pick, 11 years after Hedman
Colorado - 13 years since Duchene pick, 9 years since Mackinnon pick

The part of the fan base that wants to "re-build" has been calling for the team to re-build since after the 18-19 season - which at the time was only 6 years after picking Monahan.

Even right now we're only really 9 years into this iteration of team since the post Iginla era started. Big problem was wasting assets on guys like Smith or Hamonic that were short term pieces that didn't help extend our window at all.

People get mad at Treliving for not signing Gaudreau earlier too, and we've all talked about his impending UFA being the end of this window, but both Tampa and Colorado were in the exact same situation prior to them winning a cup. Stamkos got right to the verge of UFA, but decided to stay in Tampa at the 11th hour. Same thing with Landeskog last year in Colorado.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Anyone still drooling over Dylan Cozens?

Cozens would be fantastic, he's just coming in to his own-38 pts and 55 PIM in 79 games this year. He's 6'3", skilled, and can move. Buffalo wouldn't be up to trading him though, as they don't have a huge stable of top-tier centers in the organization.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Funny part is it does help to get high draft picks to build a cup winner - but tanking isn't really is how a team have actually gotten those picks.

The whole idea of "triggering" a re-build itself is kind of false - you just end up being bad one day and then you need to embrace it. That's how you get those picks. When you're having a bad season don't try to salvage it - just let the bad season happen.

Tampa didn't trigger a "rebuild" or "tank" when they got Stamkos or Hedman. They just ended up being bad with a roster that included St.Louis, Lecavalier, Boyle, and Richards for much of those two seasons.

Uh yes Tampa did. They told Boyle he either waives his NTC from his freshly signed contract or they put him on waivers. They traded Brad Richards. They made many cuts from the 2004 Tampa Bay Lightning Stanley Cup Finalists until the 2008 Tampa team.