Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by blankall

TLDR: Our offence sucks without Johnny. Anyone who disagrees with that statement, doesn't know much about the Flames.

Well, he is absolutely our best player.

It's hard to argue that the Flames be as good next year as they were this past year if they lose Johnny - and it's worth noting the team already wasn't good enough (they got absolutely spanked by the Oilers in 5 games).

Johnny leaves? There's not a lot of hope for this team going forward without a massive direction change. Spend money on Forsberg? The team is worse, because Gaudreau >>> Forsberg.

[Erick Estrada]

Really given the age of Markstrom, Lindholm, Backlund, Coleman, Tanev, Mangiapane, Toffoli, etc this team really isn't in a position to rebuild as a lot of their best players are either in their prime or nearing their best before date. They have no 1st round pick and just 3 picks in the entire upcoming draft so it's simply not a good time to rebuild. In the event Gaudreau leaves they would be best served being aggressive in free agency for a player like Forsberg or Kadri. I have no issue with the Flames rebuilding but I think that has to come naturally through poor play and bad seasons. Coming from a 111 point season I just don't think it's practical to throw in the towel even if your best player leaves as remember the Islanders actually got better when Tavares left.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really given the age of Markstrom, Lindholm, Backlund, Coleman, Tanev, Mangiapane, Toffoli, etc this team really isn't in a position to rebuild as a lot of their best players are either in their prime or nearing their best before date. They have no 1st round pick and just 3 picks in the entire upcoming draft so it's simply not a good time to rebuild. In the event Gaudreau leaves they would be best served being aggressive in free agency for a player like Forsberg or Kadri. I have no issue with the Flames rebuilding but I think that has to come naturally through poor play and bad seasons. Coming from a 111 point season I just don't think it's practical to throw in the towel even if your best player leaves as remember the Islanders actually got better when Tavares left.

My problem with that is that the team is worse than they were last year, and worse than they have been in recent years. It's not like the Flames have been some steady contender for years - they've been in and out of the playoffs, and have had extremely limited playoff success when they do make it. The Islanders "got better" when Tavares left for a short period of time. Now? Look at where they are. They won nothing at the end of the day because they were a poorly structured team that was incredibly well coached.

Going out and spending money on Forsberg while losing Gaudreau just even more firmly entrenches this team in mediocrity. That's even without considering that Forsberg signing here would be the single biggest free agent signing in organizational history. We've NEVER signed a UFA of that quality. They just don't choose Calgary. Why would Forsberg choose Calgary even from a roster perspective without Johnny here. A team losing their best player doesn't exactly scream like "oh hey, that's a winning organization!".

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

My problem with that is that the team is worse than they were last year, and worse than they have been in recent years. It's not like the Flames have been some steady contender for years - they've been in and out of the playoffs, and have had extremely limited playoff success when they do make it.

Going out and spending money on Forsberg while losing Gaudreau just even more firmly entrenches this team in mediocrity.

There's little doubt Treliving wasted a good portion of the team's window with poor coaching hires but as long as Darryl Sutter is the head coach they have a chance.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Well, he is absolutely our best player.

It's hard to argue that the Flames be as good next year as they were this past year if they lose Johnny - and it's worth noting the team already wasn't good enough (they got absolutely spanked by the Oilers in 5 games).

Johnny leaves? There's not a lot of hope for this team going forward without a massive direction change. Spend money on Forsberg? The team is worse, because Gaudreau >>> Forsberg.

this didn't happen

4 of 5 games were tied in the 3rd period despite terrible goaltending...they would have won game 5 if not for a ridiculously bad call

Panthers scored 3 goals in round two...that is getting spanked, and they probably aren't throwing in the towel

If they lose Gaudreau and don't add multiple good players (one guy won't replace him) they will be worse though

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There's little doubt Treliving wasted a good portion of the team's window with poor coaching hires but as long as Darryl Sutter is the head coach they have a chance.

A chance at what? You need top end coaching but you also need top end talent - while this team has the coach, this team WITH Johnny isn't talented enough. Without Johnny? It's nowhere near good enough.

Originally Posted by dino7c

this didn't happen

4 of 5 games were tied in the 3rd period despite terrible goaltending...they would have won game 5 if not for a ridiculously bad call

They lost in 5, end of story. The excuses/what ifs don't matter at the end of the day.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

A chance at what? You need top end coaching but you also need top end talent - while this team has the coach, this team WITH Johnny isn't talented enough. Without Johnny? It's nowhere near good enough.



They lost in 5, end of story. The excuses/what ifs don't matter at the end of the day.

they didn't get "absolutely spanked" though...its not an excuse its what happened.
Not many teams are gonna win a series with .850 goaltending, can't assume that is what the Flames will have in the future
Also, they scored a goal in game 5 that was allowed all year, at the very least its a bad break
3 of the 10 NHL all stars plus Lindholm 2nd in Selke voting...they have the talent

there are other factors. The way the team is playing a given week, injuries, GOAL TENDING, bounces
By this logic the Florida Panthers should rebuild, they scored 3 goals in an entire series! they obviously can't compete

All this being said I do agree, lose Gaudreau and you need multiple good players to replace...keep Gaudreau and you still want to find a way to improve as always

[Strange Brew]

Closest 5 game series in the history of the sport.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

A chance at what? You need top end coaching but you also need top end talent - while this team has the coach, this team WITH Johnny isn't talented enough. Without Johnny? It's nowhere near good enough.

Define not talented enough. If you want to wait until the team is as talented as the Avalanche it could be decades if ever. There's enough talent here to make the playoffs and as long as they play Sutter hockey they have a chance. There was enough talent on the team to put 3 players on the 1st and 2nd all star teams which was more than any other team so I think you are selling the team short here.

[Toonage]

Oilers were a bad matchup for whatever reason(s). If the Kings put them away in R1, and they were close, I maintain the Flames would have beaten L.A. and gone to the conference finals.

This team needs to stay together and as Treliving would put it, work around the fringes. I haven't been this positive about the team in years.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Closest 5 game series in the history of the sport.

I mean you do have to look at what actually happened or 31 teams should be rebuilding because the bottom line is they aren't good enough by "they lost, no excuses" logic

I would bet on Markstom not having an .850 save percentage next season in the playoffs, if he does then there's your problem.

Flames weren't winning game three...with average (not even vezina level) goaltending they win 2 and 4 and in reality they probably did win 5


NHL playoffs are too much of a fine line to be talking in absolutes...Tampa was a crossbar away from losing in game 6 of round one

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

No, the rest of you are saying he is leaving, or he wants to go East, or he was just lip servicing the fan base when he said he wants to stay. I didn't "guarantee" anything, I said he isn't going anywhere because I believe that and I get dogpiled on. Other posters have literally posted things like he is leaving or he is gone and nobody says squat about those posts. Being a fan is supposed to be a positive thing, but not on here apparently. I gave my reasons why I think he will stay and all I got was some troll calling me a "basketcase" which apparently is quite ok. So F it, I will just shut up with my thoughts and my optimism because apparently that is not welcome here.

Most posters aren’t saying he is leaving for sure, they acknowledge all signs point to he might leave.

You have said he is absolutely staying.

[dino7c]

If you don't think the Flames are talented enough with 2 100 point players, a 2nd in Selke player, 2nd in Vezina player, and coach of the year well GL
You could rebuild for decades and not get all that, in fact it's very likely

Flames absolutely have the base if they can keep Gaudreau

[Roof-Daddy]

This Flames team was good enough to win it all this year IMO (never thought I'd be saying that) but things just didn't go their way in the playoffs.

To win the cup, not only do you need to be good, you also need to be lucky.

It also helps if the league doesn't have an agenda to push. (an agenda that isn't in your favor)

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dino7c

this didn't happen

4 of 5 games were tied in the 3rd period despite terrible goaltending...they would have won game 5 if not for a ridiculously bad call

Panthers scored 3 goals in round two...that is getting spanked, and they probably aren't throwing in the towel

If they lose Gaudreau and don't add multiple good players (one guy won't replace him) they will be worse though

Flames lost 3 games that were tied in the third and in 2 of those games they had multi goal leads. Markstrom’s play and falling trap to the Oilers rush game killed their chances of winning.

Flames lose a short series against Edmonton but they weren’t spanked, however their goalie who was just voted #2 in the NHL really struggled and he needs to figure it out against that team

[Roof-Daddy]

The first domino in the Flames playoff downfall was Oettinger.

That guy singlehandedly forced the Flames to play 7 games when the series should have been over in 5 at the most. Those extra games led to Tanev and Zadorov getting injured.

The next domino was the oilers being Markstrom's kryptonite for some reason, which was exacerbated by the fact that our D core was pretty much in shambles.

Then the league made sure to step on the Flames throats by over officiating every game to make sure their superstar got as much prime time as possible.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

My problem with that is that the team is worse than they were last year, and worse than they have been in recent years. It's not like the Flames have been some steady contender for years - they've been in and out of the playoffs, and have had extremely limited playoff success when they do make it. The Islanders "got better" when Tavares left for a short period of time. Now? Look at where they are. They won nothing at the end of the day because they were a poorly structured team that was incredibly well coached.

Going out and spending money on Forsberg while losing Gaudreau just even more firmly entrenches this team in mediocrity. That's even without considering that Forsberg signing here would be the single biggest free agent signing in organizational history. We've NEVER signed a UFA of that quality. They just don't choose Calgary. Why would Forsberg choose Calgary even from a roster perspective without Johnny here. A team losing their best player doesn't exactly scream like "oh hey, that's a winning organization!".

The bolded is the most tired argument ever. Aside from the fact that signing UFAs has never been the key to contending (see PHI, NYR), there simply haven't been enough top tier free agents changing teams for any team to cry poor about it.

Last decade (since 8 year limit):

Pietrangelo
Panarin
Bobrovsky
Tavares

Hamilton
Krug
Duchene
Hayes
maybe a few more in this 2nd tier

Frist 7 years of cap era:

Parise
Suter
B Richards
Bryzgalov
Redden
Chara
Hossa
B Campbell
Bouwmeester
Rafalski
Briere
Timonen
Gomez
Drury
Smyth
Niedermayer


Obviously this list is all over the place in terms of actual talent and I'm probably missing a few later career/shorter term deals similar to Niedermayer (Gionta, Kariya, etc.)

Bouwmeester is unquestionably among the top 30 UFAs in the cap era; I've listed 24 guys above - 9 of which were signed by PHI/NYR. CHI and Min have also double-dipped, so CGY is actually among the ~12 teams that have actually landed a big fish.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by dino7c

If you don't think the Flames are talented enough with 2 100 point players, a 2nd in Selke player, 2nd in Vezina player, and coach of the year well GL
You could rebuild for decades and not get all that, in fact it's very likely

Flames absolutely have the base if they can keep Gaudreau

On top of this 3/4 top-4 defenders are 25 or younger. Their top line is aged 24-28. If you blow it up every time one of your top players gets to the ripe old age of 28, then you're going to be perpetually rebuilding.

Assuming the Flames can keep Gaudreau, they are probably about 2 good moves away from being legit favorites.

Fans are letting 2-3 bad games (at very inopportune time) justify a rebuild and ignoring the other 80+ good games.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

My endgame is that everything points to Gaudreau signing here yet people like to focus on him leaving because for some reason I can't comprehend many of our fanbase on here seem to feed off things going wrong. This team is not going to let their franchise winger walk. I like to focus on the best case scenarios.

The bolded here is so annoying but very true

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Vernon was great in 1989. After that not so much.

Beating the Oilers is not the measure of success. And if the first guy to beat the Oilers is the key, they should name the building after Steve Smith.

Typed like a guy who never watched a Flames game from 80 to 85...

Measure of success is who wins a cup. We would be the Canucks with ZERO cups without Vernon.

But you are right. they should name a building about Steve Smith.