American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[opendoor]

Just as a comparison, in 1960 the minimum wage was $1/hr, the median family income was $5.6K, and the average detached house cost ~$19K. So 19,000 hours of minimum wage would get you the median house (not the cheapest) and a full-time minimum wage worker earned about 36% of what the median family income was.

If you use those ratios using today's values, you'd get the following:

Median US house price is ~$430K, so 1/19000 of that is $22.50/hr

Median family income is ~$85K, so 36% of that would mean a minimum wage of ~$15/hr.

So yeah, a $15/hr minimum wage is reasonable by historical standards. True, if you apply those ratios to the poorest states, you end up down in the $7-10/hr range, but that disparity existed back then too, but the federal minimum wage was still that high. For instance, in the southern US minimum wage was equivalent to about 50% of the median family income in 1960.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

And re: small businesses, as someone who worked for one for 15 years...oh well. If your business model requires you to keep your employees below a living wage you are a bad business owner. You're bad at it and you shouldn't have a business. You're not entitled to a profit.

What is the difference between saying this to a small business owner with small margins and saying to someone who is a low wage earner or unemployed "If you can't find a job that earns a living wage, you are a bad labor market participant. You're bad at it and shouldn't have a job. You're not entitled to earnings."?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What is the difference between saying this to a small business owner with small margins and saying to someone who is a low wage earner or unemployed "If you can't find a job that earns a living wage, you are a bad labor market participant. You're bad at it and shouldn't have a job. You're not entitled to earnings."?

There’s only a finite number of jobs and people need money to live, a business owner isn’t required to pay more than the bare minimum. If the reality were that every employer that pays minimum wage couldn’t possibly afford to pay more you might have a point, but we all know that’s simply not the case. The system in the states is currently designed to allow employers to exploit workers with impunity.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What is the difference between saying this to a small business owner with small margins and saying to someone who is a low wage earner or unemployed "If you can't find a job that earns a living wage, you are a bad labor market participant. You're bad at it and shouldn't have a job. You're not entitled to earnings."?

Aside from just about everything and the fact that one sounds like a position a reasonable person could have and the other sounds like a really awkward attempt at whataboutism on the internet, the best answer is pretty simple:

People need money (earnings) to live. A business owner does not need profits to keep the business, or themselves, alive.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People need money (earnings) to live. A business owner does not need profits to keep the business, or themselves, alive.

It's not different than having a job. For a small business owner, the profits are their wage and many of them make less than their employees. Half the business owners I know are people who started as workers in the industry before going out on their own. If their business fails, not only is their income gone, but they likely have a lot of debt to pay off after as well.

I would say having your business fail is 10x worse than just losing a job.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not different than having a job. For a small business owner, the profits are their wage and many of them make less than their employees. Half the business owners I know are people who started as workers in the industry before going out on their own. If their business fails, not only is their income gone, but they likely have a lot of debt to pay off after as well.

Many make less than their employees? How many? In the case of small businesses that only pay their staff minimum wage I have a hard time believing that the business owner would put in the work running a business only to make less than $7.25/hour.

What was the incentive for the half of the business owners you know to start their own company rather than to keep working as an employee if the money wasn’t it?

The debt argument would be a little stronger if low income workers weren’t carrying any debt.

I would say having your business fail is 10x worse than just losing a job.

To be honest you went so over the top with trying to paint owning a business as a hardship that it’s hard to take this sentence seriously.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Many make less than their employees? How many? In the case of small businesses that only pay their staff minimum wage I have a hard time believing that the business owner would put in the work running a business only to make less than $7.25/hour.

What was the incentive for the half of the business owners you know to start their own company rather than to keep working as an employee if the money wasn’t it?

The debt argument would be a little stronger if low income workers weren’t carrying any debt.



To be honest you went so over the top with trying to paint owning a business as a hardship that it’s hard to take this sentence seriously.

When you consider how many expenses they have, it makes sense. Many businesses start off leasing or renting equipment until they can invest enough into the business to actually start making money. Not to mention rent and loan payments.

Most businesses take 7-10 years before the owners actually start making money after paying down debt.

https://www.freshbooks.com/hub/start...-be-successful


You might be wondering, how much does the average business owner make? According to PayScale’s 2017 data, the average small business owner income is $73,000 per year. But, total earnings can range from $30,000 – $182,000 per year.

PayScale’s average varies greatly from a slightly older median reported by the Small Business Administration (2015). According to the SBA, the median income for self-employed individuals at an incorporated business was $49,804 and $22,424 for unincorporated firms.

Looking at a nationwide average can be misleading since each state (and even city) has a different cost of living. For clarification, the SBA also breaks down the average income of a business owner by state. For example, their data shows that California small business owners (incorporated) earned $56,142 while Vermont small business owners (incorporated) earned $45,828. For a full list of Small Business Profiles by state, check out the SBA’s website.

https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog...verage-income/

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

When you consider how many expenses they have, it makes sense. Many businesses start off leasing or renting equipment until they can invest enough into the business to actually start making money. Not to mention rent and loan payments.

Most businesses take 7-10 years before the owners actually start making money after paying down debt.

https://www.freshbooks.com/hub/start...-be-successful

Why not just get a job then, if it’s “no different” but where it is different is all these negatives like higher risk and debt?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

When you consider how many expenses they have, it makes sense. Many businesses start off leasing or renting equipment until they can invest enough into the business to actually start making money. Not to mention rent and loan payments.

Most businesses take 7-10 years before the owners actually start making money after paying down debt.

https://www.freshbooks.com/hub/start...-be-successful

If you’re going to make statements that aren’t even supported by your own sources we’re unlikely to get anywhere. The facts should speak for themselves without needing to continually add in vague or otherwise unsubstantiated claims.

You might be wondering, how much does the average business owner make? According to PayScale’s 2017 data, the average small business owner income is $73,000 per year. But, total earnings can range from $30,000 – $182,000 per year.

PayScale’s average varies greatly from a slightly older median reported by the Small Business Administration (2015). According to the SBA, the median income for self-employed individuals at an incorporated business was $49,804 and $22,424 for unincorporated firms.

Looking at a nationwide average can be misleading since each state (and even city) has a different cost of living. For clarification, the SBA also breaks down the average income of a business owner by state. For example, their data shows that California small business owners (incorporated) earned $56,142 while Vermont small business owners (incorporated) earned $45,828. For a full list of Small Business Profiles by state, check out the SBA’s website.

https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog...verage-income/

The credibility of your data sources aside(due to the fact that it’s anonymously gathered pay scale’s data is not verifiable) I’m not seeing anything here that suggests small business owners would make less money than an employee earning minimum wage. Even according to the outdated questionable pay scale data you’ve provided small business owners at minimum are making more than double what a fulltime employee earning the federal minimum wage is.

You’re also conveniently neglecting to mention that small business owners are able to benefit from things like writing off a vehicle or a portion of their mortgage payments and that the financial gains would not be included in their income totals.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The system isn’t that complex. We invented it. Every single complexity that exists is one we invented and one we can change if we want to.

The system is mind-meltingly complex. The number of interconnected variables, actors, and economies are staggering. Demographics, fiscal policy, supply chains, markets, tariffs, taxes, interest rates, deficits - brilliant people can spend decades in school and still only understand part of how the system works.

Nobody is in charge of all of it - even in totalitarian countries like China. And the people who do have power and goodwill often get it wrong. We’re experience the worst inflation in decades because central bankers were overwhelmed by complexity and circumstances. There are so many variables and murky tradeoffs in a modern, globalized economy that they pulled the wrong levers.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The biggest single issue is that people don’t want it to change.

People are fine with change. But no, most people IRL don’t believe our system is broken. Most Canadians recognize we live in an uncommonly prosperous, peaceful, fair society. We have lots of examples of genuinely broken societies to compare ourselves with.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People like that there are people who are poorer than they are.

That’s not true. Most people recognize there’s no way to ensure everyone is materially equal. And most Canadians willingly pay taxes to try to ensure a basic standard of living is available to all.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The system might be broken, but gosh darn it, I’ve done ok so how bad can it be. Any change that might have an impact on them that could be perceived as negative is too much.

Self-interest does enter into it, yes. But that’s true of everyone. If you polled Albertans about implementing a 5 per cent PST (which I favour, btw), you’d find as much opposition among those who earn under $50k as those who earn over.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As I said, mandate higher minimum wages to match a cost of living, or implement a UBI. We’re all paying for it either way, so let’s go. Or everyone middle class and lower can keep licking the boots of the rich and continue waiting patiently for whatever they want to send down the line. Because it’s been so, so much, hasn’t it?

To implement a UBI, the federal government would have to more than double its budget. Where would the money come from? And how would we keep a lid on inflation?

And licking the boots of the rich? Really? You’re not in the students’ union bar trying to impress other undergrads anymore.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You’re not in the students’ union bar trying to impress other undergrads anymore.

Is this your new version of saying my posts are just intended to farm ‘thanks’ for a dopamine hit?

I like it, personally. A little bit more personal, a little kick of originality. Not as much of a “terminally online” vibe.

Good work man. Appreciate the new direction.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The system is mind-meltingly complex. The number of interconnected variables, actors, and economies are staggering. Demographics, fiscal policy, supply chains, markets, tariffs, taxes, interest rates, deficits - brilliant people can spend decades in school and still only understand part of how the system works.

Nobody is in charge of all of it - even in totalitarian countries like China. And the people who do have power and goodwill often get it wrong. We’re experience the worst inflation in decades because central bankers were overwhelmed by complexity and circumstances. There are so many variables and murky tradeoffs in a modern, globalized economy that they pulled the wrong levers.



People are fine with change. But no, most people IRL don’t believe our system is broken. Most Canadians recognize we live in an uncommonly prosperous, peaceful, fair society. We have lots of examples of genuinely broken societies to compare ourselves with.



That’s not true. Most people recognize there’s no way to ensure everyone is materially equal. And most Canadians willingly pay taxes to try to ensure a basic standard of living is available to all.



Self-interest does enter into it, yes. But that’s true of everyone. If you polled Albertans about implementing a 5 per cent PST (which I favour, btw), you’d find as much opposition among those who earn under $50k as those who earn over.



To implement a UBI, the federal government would have to more than double its budget. Where would the money come from? And how would we keep a lid on inflation?

And licking the boots of the rich? Really? You’re not in the students’ union bar trying to impress other undergrads anymore.

Honestly I agree with both you an Pepsi. I'm with Pepsi that mass change is possible as the system (specifically the global monetary system) IS a human construction that can be fixed in a variety of theoretical, possibly even extreme, ways.

I also agree with you that individual selfishness (an economic assumption) at its face will come up against radical change. And also agree with your view on the general attitude of Canadians and social responsibility. I think because we consume so much American media, we assume our problems to be the same. They are not. However, the American system IS the basis for the global monetary system, and what it does still affects what everyone else does. So it is a point to be made that change needs to happen there in order to happen everywhere.

As for the bolded: Give corporations a choice - a mandated percentage of profit reinvested into it's base labour force (non-management). OR a (relatively small) tax that funds the UBI. Problem is, as a small market economy, we don't have the market force to incentivize companies to stay here through those types of things. They will just outsource head offices and employment to places without the tax/legal burden. Which is why the (unfortunately) the US has to be leaders on that type of thing. And really a loop back to Pepsi's point that the system itself is broken if we can't correct this crazy inequal wealth distribution.

It will break on it's own eventually. What's happening is unsustainable. When people can't afford to participate in economies outside of basic needs (food and shelter, can't afford new cars, new appliances, new clothes, and especially homes etc...) the system will collapse. We can control how that happens, or just let it happen. But letting it happen results in things like increased crime, homelessness, food insecurity, which all results in violence and death and eventually some type of mass revolutionary change anyways. Do we want to face that? Or maybe just make an attempt at something different first?

[PeteMoss]

What is somewhat interesting is that most of the people raging today are relatively well off. The Trumpers in the US who can chase him around all day or the Convoy people in Canada are all obviously doing well enough to be able to spend weeks on end at protests with trucks and donate endless money to the people leading it.

Same story with the left protesters who end up leading the defund police or whatever movements. They are relatively well-off.

This is not the poor raging for the most part. Its people who have decided they will save the group (in these cases - the poor, the racial minority or the white people) they feel is being disadvantaged for the most part.

Even if you look at unions that are getting formed now. They aren't at the typical blue collar job you'd associate with unions. They are at Starbucks or at Apple stores.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Even if you look at unions that are getting formed now. They aren't at the typical blue collar job you'd associate with unions. They are at Starbucks or at Apple stores.

They’re minimum wage jobs, the fact that people don’t associate those types of jobs with organizing unions is a big part of what keeps those jobs paying minimum wage. Not sure anyone would consider either to be a white collar job or for the people working them to be well off.

[MRCboicgy]

Really should move the discussion around wages to a new thread. Please. It's going off topic.

[Coach]

Yeah a big (possibly the biggest) part of the problem is that the biggest players pay the lowest wages. It's backwards by Capitalism standards. The biggest most profitable companies should have the highest paying, best benefited, most sought after, base-level jobs. In theory, that's how you get better employees to make your company better.

That's not what has happened.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

What is somewhat interesting is that most of the people raging today are relatively well off.

It can fairly be described as a war between two largely white, and largely middle to upper middle class groups.

MAGA’s most vocal supporters are upper middle class whites. On the left, Progressives are the whitest and best educated group in the Democratic coalition, while the group with the highest Black and working class representation (Democratic Mainstays) are the most moderate.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

If you’re going to make statements that aren’t even supported by your own sources we’re unlikely to get anywhere. The facts should speak for themselves without needing to continually add in vague or otherwise unsubstantiated claims.



The credibility of your data sources aside(due to the fact that it’s anonymously gathered pay scale’s data is not verifiable) I’m not seeing anything here that suggests small business owners would make less money than an employee earning minimum wage. Even according to the outdated questionable pay scale data you’ve provided small business owners at minimum are making more than double what a fulltime employee earning the federal minimum wage is.

You’re also conveniently neglecting to mention that small business owners are able to benefit from things like writing off a vehicle or a portion of their mortgage payments and that the financial gains would not be included in their income totals.

I am not sure what is hard to understand. When you consider that tipped employees often make much more than minimum wage, and many business owners make the equivalent of minimum wage especially when you consider that business owners typically work more than 50+ hours in a week.

https://www.cfib-fcei.ca/en/media/ca...income-rich-sk

Data from Statistics Canada show that two-thirds of Canadian small business owners are earning less than $73,000, and employers earning less than $40,000 outnumber those earning more than $250,000 by four to one.

So yeah, a substantial number of business owner make what is essentially minimum wage or less when you look at hours works.


https://www.hec.edu/en/knowledge/art...ess-measurable

On average, entrepreneurs earn 4% to 15% less per year than their wage-earner counterparts, work longer hours, experience higher income risk, and their earnings rise less quickly over time. Only a small fraction of entrepreneurs end up making a lot more money than they did as employees . In other words, for every Richard Branson, there are thousands of restaurant owners, graphic designers, and plumbers slaving away for less than what they would as salaried employees. If a difference in earnings of 4% to 15% per year doesn’t sound like much, as Thomas Astebro points out, “Over a lifetime, it adds up to a substantial amount in terms of foregone earnings.”

[MRCboicgy]

Also, this was missed in this thread over the weekend a lot to take in from Texas. In addition to officially saying Biden was not elected, they went full theocracy

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06...ention-cornyn/

The new platform would call for:

• Requiring Texas students “to learn about the humanity of the preborn child,” including teaching that life begins at fertilization and requiring students to listen to live ultrasounds of gestating fetuses.
• Amending the Texas Constitution to remove the Legislature’s power “to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.”
• Treating homosexuality as “an abnormal lifestyle choice,” language that was not included in the 2018 or 2020 party platforms.
• Deeming gender identity disorder “a genuine and extremely rare mental health condition,” requiring official documents to adhere to “biological gender,” and allowing civil penalties and monetary compensation to “de-transitioners” who have received gender-affirming surgery, which the platform calls a form of medical malpractice.
• Changing the U.S. Constitution to cement the number of Supreme Court justices at nine and repeal the 16th Amendment of 1913, which created the federal income tax.
• Ensuring “freedom to travel” by opposing Biden’s Clean Energy Plan and “California-style, anti-driver policies,” including efforts to turn traffic lanes over for use by pedestrians, cyclists and mass transit.
• Declaring “all businesses and jobs as essential and a fundamental right,” a response to COVID-19 mandates by Texas cities that required customers to wear masks and limited business hours.
• Abolishing the Federal Reserve, the nation’s central bank, and guaranteeing the right to use alternatives to cash, including cryptocurrencies.

[Sliver]

Isn't wanting to keep people down and paid below their costs to eke out a meager existence evil just on its face?

I don't understand why conservative people are trying to overcomplicate things. Minimum wage in the USA is too low for people to survive. Basic costs of living exceed what you can make earning minimum wage. Okay, it has to be increased. It's just so fataing simple. To argue it should stay as it is means you are a horrible, indecent human being.

I remember when there was chatter of increasing minimum wage in Alberta to $15 and everybody I know who I considered to be an a-hole thought it shouldn't be increased. Well, it increased and everything was fine, except some people got to live a little better. Oh, the horror.