American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

Why does anyone care if he falls? Everyone does it, particularly when you are at your most relaxed.

I went over my bars on pneuma last year, which is an up track as I was relaxed and chatting with my buddies about battery and hydrogen fuel cell tech.

It's dumb but I think people care about how "strong" their President looks in superficial ways. Like many have said, falling while trying to get off a bike with pedal straps can happen to anyone regardless of their age/health, but it's the image of it that gets to people when the stumbling guy is the "most powerful man in the world".

It's like how the media reported on Trump walking down that ramp at a rally as if he were a 95 year old or how people started to question his health because he drank water by holding a bottle with two hands.

It's superficial but it happens to all Presidents.

I feel like the only two fit Presidents I can recall in my lifetime were Obama (by far) and Clinton. My money is on Obama in a game of 1 on 1 basketball vs a randomly selected American the same age.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Didn’t say it was. I was using it as an illustrative example.

But even in Mississippi, which is one of the cheapest states to live in the US, a living wage for a single adult with no kids is about $15-$16. Even in Mississippi, $10 doesn’t let you live significantly better than $15 in Calgary.

So you’re right in the sense that $15 is probably the minimum and isn’t enough in other places. It should be even higher.

You can argue whatever you want though. You seem to take issue with $15 as a “magical” number and not what paying people a living wage is meant to address. If that’s your priority, fine, but the least you could do is speak in terms of what a living wage actually is in many of these places, and not random conjecture about, to speak in your terms, “magical” places where $10 is like $20 in Calgary. Or how “businesses will just close and no one to replace them” which ignores the basic fact that people will suddenly have more money to spend and any half intelligent business minded person is going to ensure they have somewhere to spend it.

Like, let’s talk real stuff if you want to talk real stuff. If you’re going to take issue with “magic” numbers don’t offer up fantasies as the backbone of your argument.

Can you show a legitimate cost of living difference between say Calgary and a small town in Mississippi? I probably live in a slightly above average cost of living med size city and I get sticker shock on just about everything I’m Calgary. Grocery prices are at least 40-50% higher. Rent, house prices, gas prices, golf courses, gas prices are all significantly higher and close to double for some things. On the other side all those things are 30-40% cheaper in some small Virginia and West Virginia towns. You can call it anecdotal but cost of living calculations seem rather nebulous. Everyone has different priorities on what they spend money on, but real world cost of living can vary from 2-3 times across the US.

I think $15 without any time to phase it in is too high too quickly in some places. The market can't take increased prices and businesses will close, and people will be out of work or working less. I would guess the majority of people in the US live in places where the min wage is close to $15 anyway, or at least no one is paying less than $14 or $15. $15 min wage becomes a nonsensical policy when it causes economic problems in 25% of the country, is an appropriate boost in another 25% and does absolutely nothing in 50% of the country. Continuing to lobby for a $15 min wage instead of something based on local conditions just makes it an easy policy to reject and it gets no where.

[Nancy]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Can you show a legitimate cost of living difference between say Calgary and a small town in Mississippi? I probably live in a slightly above average cost of living med size city and I get sticker shock on just about everything I’m Calgary. Grocery prices are at least 40-50% higher. Rent, house prices, gas prices, golf courses, gas prices are all significantly higher and close to double for some things. On the other side all those things are 30-40% cheaper in some small Virginia and West Virginia towns. You can call it anecdotal but cost of living calculations seem rather nebulous. Everyone has different priorities on what they spend money on, but real world cost of living can vary from 2-3 times across the US.

I think $15 without any time to phase it in is too high too quickly in some places. The market can't take increased prices and businesses will close, and people will be out of work or working less. I would guess the majority of people in the US live in places where the min wage is close to $15 anyway, or at least no one is paying less than $14 or $15. $15 min wage becomes a nonsensical policy when it causes economic problems in 25% of the country, is an appropriate boost in another 25% and does absolutely nothing in 50% of the country. Continuing to lobby for a $15 min wage instead of something based on local conditions just makes it an easy policy to reject and it gets no where.

I have referenced the following site before, but doubt the accuracy of some of the numbers: (obviously the gas price is way out of date, for example)

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...atchComparison

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Nancy

I have referenced the following site before, but doubt the accuracy of some of the numbers: (obviously the gas price is way out of date, for example)

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...atchComparison

Thanks. It provides an interesting breakdown. Also the comparison is for converted dollars.

Alberta only has an $11.49 USD min wage, which is less than our $12 min wage in VA.

[Dion]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1536389685467041794

[Delthefunky]

Saw that Mark Shields died at 85. Just retired from the NewsHour in 2020. Always thought his opinions were pretty spot on, and really enjoyed the Friday discussions with David Brooks.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Should an establishment that is able to exist solely on the backs of that many people, including the generally higher paid professionals you mentioned, making less than $15 even be in business?

That’s an unsustainable model doomed to fail. Those are the types of businesses that deserve to fail.

That's a fair point. A lot of businesses should just fail if they can't make it. That whole industry is due for a culling. Keep in mind when we are talking about small businesses, we are talking about people. People who are self-employed and not really that different than the employees. They toil long hours often for little reward hoping that they can make it. If the businesses deserve to fail, then maybe so do unskilled people whose labour or skills have little economic value or benefits to employers or society.

The thing is, in Canada, many people, especially young people, insist on living in big expensive cities where minimum wages are difficult to get by on and where there is a lot of low skilled labour available. It's not communist Russia and we obviously can't force people to relocate to remote areas that need labour and where the cost of living is lower, but many Canadians do willingly make that sacrifice in order to avoid the minimum wage trap. I lived in camps off and on for a few years, and while it sucked and I much would have preferred the comfort of a big city and missed my family, it beat making minimum wage and feeling sorry for myself because of it. I also received job training that I still benefit from today. I know not everyone can do that kind of work, but many people can and just don't want to.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I would guess the majority of people in the US live in places where the min wage is close to $15 anyway, or at least no one is paying less than $14 or $15.

In which case there should be no resistance in those areas and should be an easy to implement.

Or is this one of those “it does nothing for me so I’m against it” arguments?

Originally Posted by nfotiu

$15 min wage becomes a nonsensical policy when it causes economic problems in 25% of the country, is an appropriate boost in another 25% and does absolutely nothing in 50% of the country.

So a policy being appropriate for 75% of the country is unacceptable because 25% of the country is against it? Is that something that happens all over the US? Or is it only if a certain poor and red 25% is against it that an idea is bad, even if they would benefit most?

In a Consumer driven country like the USA, where spending money is the main thing keeping the country try moving, being against giving people more spending power seems counterproductive and damaging to the overall economy.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

That's a fair point. A lot of businesses should just fail if they can't make it. That whole industry is due for a culling. Keep in mind when we are talking about small businesses, we are talking about people. People who are self-employed and not really that different than the employees. They toil long hours often for little reward hoping that they can make it. If the businesses deserve to fail, then maybe so do unskilled people whose labour or skills have little economic value or benefits to employers or society.

The thing is, in Canada, many people, especially young people, insist on living in big expensive cities where minimum wages are difficult to get by on and where there is a lot of low skilled labour available. It's not communist Russia and we obviously can't force people to relocate to remote areas that need labour and where the cost of living is lower, but many Canadians do willingly make that sacrifice in order to avoid the minimum wage trap. I lived in camps off and on for a few years, and while it sucked and I much would have preferred the comfort of a big city and missed my family, it beat making minimum wage and feeling sorry for myself because of it. I also received job training that I still benefit from today. I know not everyone can do that kind of work, but many people can and just don't want to.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If your business model is predicated on underpaying your employees, you have a ####ty business model.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I lived in camps off and on for a few years, and while it sucked and I much would have preferred the comfort of a big city and missed my family, it beat making minimum wage and feeling sorry for myself because of it.

Okay but these jobs are also necessary to keep the businesses in big cities afloat. So if we want big cities to have the amenities that they have, is it not fair to suggest that the people who do the most to provide those amenities should receive more than starvation wages to provide them?

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by calculoso

In which case there should be no resistance in those areas and should be an easy to implement.

Or is this one of those “it does nothing for me so I’m against it” arguments?



So a policy being appropriate for 75% of the country is unacceptable because 25% of the country is against it? Is that something that happens all over the US? Or is it only if a certain poor and red 25% is against it that an idea is bad, even if they would benefit most?

In a Consumer driven country like the USA, where spending money is the main thing keeping the country try moving, being against giving people more spending power seems counterproductive and damaging to the overall economy.

Yeah, of course a $15 min wage is easy to implement in states and areas where no one makes less than $15/hour. I'm not sure what point you are making there.

There are a lot of small towns and rural areas across the US where small, local businesses can't absorb an instant jump to a $15 min wage and businesses will close. The net effect is that people will have to go to bigger towns or cities to shop or eat out. Boosting min wage isn't going to drive up the spending money in those areas, since unlike cities, there are very few people with min wage type jobs. Instead you are basically just killing small, local economies, so that isn't likely benefitting anyone.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If your business model is predicated on underpaying your employees, you have a ####ty business model.

Who decides what underpaying is? If $15USD/hour in the poorest counties in the US the lower limit on not underpaying, then any business in Calgary not paying their employees at least $30CDN/hour has a ####ty business model, and anyone in San Francisco not paying all their employees over $100k a year does as well.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Who decides what underpaying is? If $15USD/hour in the poorest counties in the US the lower limit on not underpaying, then any business in Calgary not paying their employees at least $30CDN/hour has a ####ty business model, and anyone in San Francisco not paying all their employees over $100k a year does as well.

Ok, sounds good. Let’s raise the minimums then.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ok, sounds good. Let’s raise the minimums then.

Do you actually mean that?

Doing that would just mandate business closures.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay but these jobs are also necessary to keep the businesses in big cities afloat. So if we want big cities to have the amenities that they have, is it not fair to suggest that the people who do the most to provide those amenities should receive more than starvation wages to provide them?

Just from my own personal experience, they don't do the most. They think they do, but they don't see everything else that goes on behind the scenes. I found that most minimum wage employees were actually detrimental to the business and had costs above just wages. There were many that meant well, but need constant supervision to complete minor tasks, made costly mistakes, or just didn't have general aptitude for anything even close to complex work even if they genuinely tried hard. I can't help but sympathize with those ones even if the costs endured by the business were greater than just their wage. Many more of them fell into the category of just being unreliable by coming in late, missing shifts, coming to work hung over, calling in sick to go to concerts, stealing from the company and that sort of thing. People like that make minimum wage because that is what they are worth. It's also difficult to terminate employees even when they are terrible, and sadly, sometimes even a bad employee is better than no employee I guess.

I also had some employees who started at minimum wage and were quickly given raises because they were reliable and good at their jobs. Any employer would be smart to pay them more because they were rare and you didn't want to lose them once you found them. It would cost the business more to pay someone else less if they were costing the business in other ways. If someone is stuck in the same job at minimum wage job for a long time, it could be that the employer just sucks. It is generally bad for a business to not give raises to employees that at the very least aren't hurting the business because you want to keep them and avoid turnover. There is also a good chance that it is the employee that is the problem though because it usually is against the employer's best interest to give good employees a financial incentive to stay.

One big positive about raising minimum wage especially in the service industry would be people might feel less obligated to tip, so even if prices go up, the actual cost to the consumer might end up being less.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Do you actually mean that?

Doing that would just mandate business closures.

People keep saying this like it’s more compelling than the fact that people are working full time jobs that do not pay them enough to live.

Yes, businesses are full of people. If you close businesses you affect people negatively. But what’s the value of a business that can only function on paying people less than they can afford to live?

If you believe in the wonderful powers of capitalism and the basic elements of supply and demand, then you have to believe those businesses either a) won’t close or b) will see the gap of their closure filled by another business. If not, a business that pays people too little to live and exists without appropriate demand is pointless.

Our options are:
1. Ensure people are paid a living wage, regardless of where they are, and adjust as necessary
2. Have the government pay people a universal basic income that ensures they have a living wage

[activeStick]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1538542804154077186

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Society: We don't want to rent DVDs anymore, we're happy to stream our movies from the comfort of our own home... Blockbuster closes, that's how the system works.

Society: We like shopping in one place, and receiving the benefits of lower prices due to bulk offerings... General stores close, everyone shops at Walmart

Society: We think all employees should receive a minimum wage that ensure they can live, pay for shelter. Buy food, etc... BuT wHaT aBoUt ThE bUsInEsSeS?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Yeah, of course a $15 min wage is easy to implement in states and areas where no one makes less than $15/hour. I'm not sure what point you are making there.

My impression is that you were lumping them in with the “no support for the measure” group, making it seem like 75% would be against it instead of 25% (using your round estimates)

Originally Posted by nfotiu

There are a lot of small towns and rural areas across the US where small, local businesses can't absorb an instant jump to a $15 min wage and businesses will close. The net effect is that people will have to go to bigger towns or cities to shop or eat out. Boosting min wage isn't going to drive up the spending money in those areas, since unlike cities, there are very few people with min wage type jobs. Instead you are basically just killing small, local economies, so that isn't likely benefitting anyone.

“Boosting min wage isn't going to drive up the spending money in those areas, since unlike cities, there are very few people with min wage type jobs.”
So, will it have a large impact or are there very few people with min wage jobs? Can’t argue both.

Other than the bars/restaurants that are currently paying $2-$3 wage and assuming tips will cover the rest (which is a horrible model to start with), I think the risk is completely over stated.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Many more of them fell into the category of just being unreliable by coming in late, missing shifts, coming to work hung over, calling in sick to go to concerts, stealing from the company and that sort of thing. People like that make minimum wage because that is what they are worth.

Or they are paid so little that they don’t value their jobs, and the behaviour you see is a direct result of it.

If you’re paying the bottom of the barrel, naturally you’ll get the bottom of the barrel employees.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I also had some employees who started at minimum wage and were quickly given raises because they were reliable and good at their jobs. Any employer would be smart to pay them more because they were rare and you didn't want to lose them once you found them.

Exactly. Value employees and they will value the business. Treat them like crap and don’t be surprised when they treat the business the same way.