Russia invades Ukraine

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What's more likely: the party was attended for the diplomats to let loose, celebrate Russia, and have a good time...or, this was an opportunity to engage in some diplomacy and gather intelligence about the war?

Highly unlikely. It was a dumb move with even worse optics.

Lose/lose situation to attend as no one there is sharing inside war information, nor is diplomacy at this low level going to alter the war one iota.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Highly unlikely. It was a dumb move with even worse optics.

Lose/lose situation to attend as no one there is sharing inside war information, nor is diplomacy at this low level going to alter the war one iota.

Disagree. I think we can spare the resources to send a guy to a party in the off chance we learn something of value we can share with our allies. Diplomacy is critical to the efforts here.

[CaptainCrunch]

I doubt there's anything of value in a Canadian Embassy Party. And I doubt there's low level diplomacy happening at an embassy party, in the Canadian Embassy.


The Russians are not going to be talking invasion plans. You know with the Canadian person opening the conversation with


"So how about that A+E special on the battle of kursk. I mean Stalin moved a lot of tanks against Germany. Just curious, how many tanks are you moving into the next stage of the war".


I think the simplest guess is probably write, someone in foreign affairs did something tone deaf and dumb.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What's more likely: the party was attended for the diplomats to let loose, celebrate Russia, and have a good time...or, this was an opportunity to engage in some diplomacy and gather intelligence about the war?

Really?

This is your angle?

This isn't a Tom Clancy novel.

It was a clear boneheaded mistake by a Canadian government official to attend. This isn't even remotely arguable.

A Canadians official went to the Russian embassy on a newly renamed Ukraine Street to represent Canada for Russia Day celebration. The optics are incredibly bad. And you are excusing and defending it for...reasons.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Really?

This is your angle?

This isn't a Tom Clancy novel.

It was a clear boneheaded mistake by a Canadian government official to attend. This isn't even remotely arguable.

A Canadians official went to the Russian embassy on a newly renamed Ukraine Street to represent Canada for Russia Day celebration. The optics are incredibly bad. And you are excusing and defending it for...reasons.

Considering what Russia stands for right now, Canadian officials might have well attended a Nazi Day Party, and you'd still somehow defend it because well Liberals.

I don't think you understand how diplomacy works lol

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't think you understand how diplomacy works lol

Considering what Russia stands for right now, Canadian officials might have well attended a Nazi Day Party, and you'd still somehow defend it because well diplomacy lol

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Considering what Russia stands for right now, Canadian officials might have well attended a Nazi Day Party, and you'd still somehow defend it because well diplomacy lol

Yeah, sorry, this isn't junior high. Diplomats shouldn't give diplomats the silent treatment. I'd much rather our diplomats be engaging the Russians right now over any other country's diplomats on earth.

Your way will get us nowhere.

My way has a slight chance - however small - to be a part of the broader global effort to hasten the end of the war.

Do you think a party at the Russian Embassy is some wicked shaker that a Canadian diplomat would want to be at for fun? Like, that's so naïve and cringe. I guarantee our diplomat went there with goals and objectives - stuff we wanted to learn, messages we wanted to send and with an ear open to any information we could glean.

I don't expect a spy to be crawling around the Russian embassy with a shoe phone and a calculator watch that can shoot knock-out darts into the necks of thugs, but I do expect us to at least be present to gather any bit of information we can while also actively planting seeds of misdirection, misinformation and anything else that can help our strategic goals.

Or, I guess, we could tell our diplomats to stay home and watch Netflix. Good thinking, Firebot. You're really playing some 4D chess with the Russians.

[opendoor]

While I doubt there was any real diplomacy going on, it's also obvious that this war is only going to end diplomatically. The idea that Russia is going to be driven back to their borders militarily is basically just fantasy at this point, so maintaining communication is important (not that Canada is going to be a big player in that).

[Firebot]

Here is the US secretary of state's statement on Russia Day.

https://www.state.gov/russias-national-day/

On behalf of the United States of America, I express my wish for a more peaceful, open future for the people of Russia as they commemorate Russia Day. June 12, 1990, marked an important step in fulfilling the aspirations of the people of Russia for freedom, democracy, and the breaking down of barriers that separate them from the rest of the world. Russian citizens, like people everywhere, deserve to live their lives free of repression and to be able to exercise their human rights and fundamental freedoms without fear of retribution. This includes being able to voice their opinions and peacefully participate in civil and political activities in their own country.

Sadly, that is not the reality in today’s Russia, where the Kremlin has intensified its crackdown against civil society and independent media. Too many Russian citizens are behind bars for the “crime” of speaking truth to power about their government’s actions. This internal repression is occurring as the Kremlin is waging an unprovoked and unjustified war against a sovereign, neighboring state. Russia’s government is attempting to keep its citizens in the dark about the atrocities it is committing against the people of Ukraine.

The Kremlin’s war has left Russia isolated internationally, and it is robbing Russian citizens of the possibility of building a better future in harmony with their neighbors. This isolation is not inevitable, but results from the decisions of Russia’s leaders. On this Russia Day, we recognize the desires of the people of Russia who still seek – as they did in June 1990 – freedom and dignity, often at great personal risk.

Compare to the same statement last year

https://www.state.gov/russia-national-day/

On behalf of the Government of the United States of America, I congratulate the citizens of Russia as you celebrate Russia Day. This holiday marks the significant step Russia made on June 12, 1991, when it held its first free, open, and fair elections, and adopted the Declaration of Russian State Sovereignty. This important document recognized the democratic aspirations and sovereignty of the peoples of Russia and guaranteed their rights and equal protections under the rule of law, and their right to life and dignity, honoring their centuries of history, culture, and traditions.

I take this opportunity to reaffirm the United States’ desire for constructive engagement with the government of the Russian Federation in the interest of promoting a more stable and predictable bilateral relationship. Likewise, we remain steadfastly committed to supporting the Russian people as they continue to build on the aspirations outlined in the Declaration of Russian State Sovereignty and their desire to work together with the international community and cooperate peacefully on matters of global concern.

That's what diplomacy looks like.

Celebrating Russia Day and sharing a pint with a genocidal and terrorist regime when you have 1 million Ukrainians on your soil seeing their families raped and murdered at the hands of Russia is the absolute worst diplomatic message you can possibly provide to your friends which includes Ukraine.

[Krovikan]

I love the arm chair spycraft discussions here by people who clearly don't even have an understanding of basic social engineering techniques.

You 100% send your "diplomats" to these types of events, then apologize for the optics. When people are relaxed and off guard is when they let things slip by accident.

Yes things aren't a Tom Clancy novel, but social engineering is 100% a thing.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Here is the US secretary of state's statement on Russia Day.

https://www.state.gov/russias-national-day/

Compare to the same statement last year

https://www.state.gov/russia-national-day/

That's what diplomacy looks like.

Celebrating Russia Day and sharing a pint with a genocidal and terrorist regime when you have 1 million Ukrainians on your soil seeing their families raped and murdered at the hands of Russia is the absolute worst diplomatic message you can possibly provide to your friends which includes Ukraine.

So you think we would help the Ukrainians more by putting out a strongly worded press release versus talking directly with the Russians? Okay, well, I'm glad you aren't a diplomat because I think you would do an egregiously horrible job at advancing our nation's - and our allies' - interests.

Also, do you think the Americans put out that release and that's where their diplomacy ended, or is it possible the Americans are still meeting with the Russian diplomats? I think they're still on speaking terms with the diplomats, so your entire post is nonsense.

[nik-]

Sliver actually arguing like some low level diplomat at a party is gonna crack the ####ing case is peak Sliver.

It's a bad look, full stop.

"I don't think you understand how diplomacy works" lol indeed.

[Sliver]

Firebot, would you be happier if we put out a statement like this:

Statement by Minister Joly on the 100th day of the Russian invasion of Ukraine

The Honourable Mélanie Joly, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today issued the following statement:

“Today marks 100 days since Putin has unjustifiably and illegally invaded Ukraine. For 100 days innocent Ukrainians have suffered, with many having needlessly perished. For 100 days Vladimir Putin has attempted to destroy Ukraine’s economy, resulting in a food security crisis felt the world over. For 100 days Russia has lied and spread false information. 100 days too many. But for 100 days the Ukrainian people have held strong. Their courage and resilience inspires us all.

“As the Russian regime lied, intimidated and manufactured a crisis, Canada relentlessly pursued a diplomatic solution, urging President Putin to de-escalate and engage in a meaningful dialogue. We worked with partners to coordinate our responses to deter further Russian aggression.

“When Putin ignored all diplomatic efforts and launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Canada, along with its international partners, took action.

“Since the beginning of this war, Canada has stood up and responded to the Russian regime by taking the following actions:

sanctioned more than 1,050 individuals and entities linked to Putin’s regime;
restricted financial transactions and trade and investment between Canada and Russia;
supplied military equipment to Ukraine’s security forces;
allocated $280 million in humanitarian and development assistance;
offered of up to $1.87 billion in financial assistance to support the Ukrainian government and economy this year;
closed off Canadian airspace and waters to Russian-owned aircraft and ships;
provided immigration support for those affected in Ukraine; and
supported Ukraine in international courts and multilateral forums, such as the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice.
“We are not done. We continue to work with the international community to do everything we can to end the Russian regime’s aggression. As the world reacts to the horrific events across Ukraine, Canada will not relent in holding Putin and his enablers accountable and supporting a full investigation of reported war crimes by the International Criminal Court.

“Canada is unwavering in its support to Ukraine.”

Because we did.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by nik-

Sliver actually arguing like some low level diplomat at a party is gonna crack the ####ing case is peak Sliver.

It's a bad look, full stop.

"I don't think you understand how diplomacy works" lol indeed.

Hey neat, another guy who doesn't understand the basics of diplomacy.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hey neat, another guy who doesn't understand the basics of diplomacy.

Peak Sliver.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Krovikan

I love the arm chair spycraft discussions here by people who clearly don't even have an understanding of basic social engineering techniques.

You 100% send your "diplomats" to these types of events, then apologize for the optics. When people are relaxed and off guard is when they let things slip by accident.

Yes things aren't a Tom Clancy novel, but social engineering is 100% a thing.

what exactly is some low level drone at the Russian embassy in Canada actually going to know that he can let slip? next to nothing.

I'd love the government to explain why the diplomat was sent to the event.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...rty-in-ottawa/

"After The Globe published its story on Ms. Heinbecker’s participation in the event Sunday, Ms. Chartrand sent a second statement, which contained her apology on behalf of the government. She said the department of Global Affairs itself was responsible for the decision to send a protocol officer."

“Maintaining diplomatic relations during a time of armed conflict is important for managing crises and an important tool for the government,” Prof. Carvin said.

“However, given Russia’s aggression, Canada’s strong stance against that aggression and the alleged war crimes being committed in Ukraine by Russian forces, this is ill-timed and inappropriate. Attending the reception goes well beyond what is necessary.”

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by nik-

Peak Sliver.

A logical argument free of emotion designed to be one of many blocks that may help end a brutal and unjust war? Sure, I'll wear that.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Firebot, would you be happier if we put out a statement like this:



Because we did.

A week after you put up that message, you share a pint on Russia Day in the Russian embassy and celebrate their Russia Day with them.

Seems to severely weaken that message of unwavering support don't you think?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Sliver

A logical argument free of emotion designed to be one of many blocks that may help end a brutal and unjust war? Sure, I'll wear that.

Most powerful intelligence agencies in the world consistently getting info on Russian moves, seemingly from inside, but no, that Canadian staffer at the Russia Day party, that was the key.

LOL. Imagine earnestly arguing this and not being embarrassed.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

what exactly is some low level drone at the Russian embassy in Canada actually going to know that he can let slip? nothing.

some bureaucrat isn't going to learn anything useful, and I doubt Canada's
bureaucrats are part of any social engineering program against our "foes"

The truth probably is that there is some clueless person who wanted a few free drinks and a story to humble brag to people "yep, I was at an event at the Russian embassy the other day..."

You don't think that all the diplomats from all the western countries who went to the Russia Day celebrations at the various embassies around the world debriefed after to see if they could put anything together to help efforts in Ukraine?