Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

This is why I think the logical move is to trade Tkachuk. That’s the move that actually has some potential upside, because if you replace him with a quick responsible two way winger, you may actually improve that line. I just don’t think you are going to ever get great responsible defensive play from Gaudreau… that’s not what he’s paid for.

Akin to the Stars I mentioned previously, they had Hull-Modano-Lehtinen. Gaudreau is better than Hull was at that point and Modano>Lindholm, so I see that as being pretty close. Neither were great defensively. That’s why Lehtinen was so important, he was great in keeping and getting it out of their own end. This line needs that more than a Tkachuk IMO. And with that you save the necessary $ and potentially add to the futures cupboard.

Ah yes improving the line by removing a 42 goal 104pt player. Makes sense

Tkachuk has had some excellent defensive metrics since he entered the league and was on the Flames shutdown line. I don’t see how trading Tkachuk for lesser pieces makes the line or team better. If they need to do it for cap reasons hopefully they are trading him for someone who can potentially be better so a younger player with high upside. Similar to Hamilton for Lindholm/Hanifin

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Ah yes improving the line by removing a 42 goal 104pt player. Makes sense

Tkachuk has had some excellent defensive metrics since he entered the league and was on the Flames shutdown line. I don’t see how trading Tkachuk for lesser pieces makes the line or team better. If they need to do it for cap reasons hopefully they are trading him for someone who can potentially be better so a younger player with high upside. Similar to Hamilton for Lindholm/Hanifin

We cant afford both unless we can dump both the Lucic and Monahan contracts without absorbing any big cap hits in return. How do you figure we do that?
We also then cant re-sign Mangiapane

Love Tkachuk but with a 9M minimum qualifying offer, and Johnny due for 10M+ how do fill out a bottom 6 and bottom 4 D with almost 0 dollars.
For clarification I want to keep both.

[Roof-Daddy]

Giving Johnny and Tkachuk matching 8 year deals with $11 million AAV leaves the Flames only $6,050,000 million in cap space and a 14 man roster.

Mangiapane had 35 goals and Kylington broke out as a full time middle pair Dman....both also need new deals.

Lucic has a NMC
Monahan will be coming off two hip surgeries and 3 straight seasons of massive decline, also has limited trade protection.

Like I said, some miraculous wizardry will be required to keep this core intact for another go at it.

[jayswin]

This is why I'm stunned when I read the desires and justification for a Zadorov deal in the $4-$5mil AAV range. A new Zadorov contract is what you sign when you've got everything you need and some cap space left, so you can afford the luxury of an expensive but awesome bottom pairing defensemen. Not when you're crunching numbers to see what buy outs or draft picks you need to spend to get rid of guys to sign your stars, lol.

Like yeah, we all saw what he can provide as a bottom pairing (second pairing fill in guy) but man, if we can afford Zadorov that means we've lost something major like Gaudreau and at that point I don't really care what the team looks like for the next couple of seasons, cause we're going backwards in a major way.

[Mr.Coffee]

Wonder if you could engage with Lucic to re-negotiate his contract to a lower cap hit. Would he reduce his $$ by extending his term maybe? Not ideal but the pitch would be "hey, wanna win?". Same with Monahan to free up a $3-4 mill.

[jayswin]

I didn't think restructuring was allowed in the NHL? Pretty sure he'd have to play out his contract or retire and then re-sign a new deal? But at that point you're just asking him give up millions of dollars next season. He seems like a great team guy, but I doubt he'd be down for that.

[2macinnis2]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Ah yes improving the line by removing a 42 goal 104pt player. Makes sense

Tkachuk has had some excellent defensive metrics since he entered the league and was on the Flames shutdown line. I don’t see how trading Tkachuk for lesser pieces makes the line or team better. If they need to do it for cap reasons hopefully they are trading him for someone who can potentially be better so a younger player with high upside. Similar to Hamilton for Lindholm/Hanifin

Look, that line wasn’t very good defensively in either series. Further, the offense was primarily driven by Gaudreau, not Tkachuk. I get that Tkachuk had a great regular season… I’m talking about playoffs. That line can be a better playoff line with a replacement IMO. And whatever his metrics may be, I just personally have never found him noticeable making good defensive plays, again particularly not in the playoffs.

Tkachuk is a really good player no doubt. But as others have mentioned, you simply cannot pay him and Gaudreau their market value. Gaudreau is far more important to keep, and Tkachuk could actually net you some return.

It’s a pretty straightforward decision, and you have be able to find a silver lining once you arrive at it.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by 2macinnis2

This is why I think the logical move is to trade Tkachuk. That’s the move that actually has some potential upside, because if you replace him with a quick responsible two way winger, you may actually improve that line. I just don’t think you are going to ever get great responsible defensive play from Gaudreau… that’s not what he’s paid for.

Akin to the Stars I mentioned previously, they had Hull-Modano-Lehtinen. Gaudreau is better than Hull was at that point and Modano>Lindholm, so I see that as being pretty close. Neither were great defensively. That’s why Lehtinen was so important, he was great in keeping and getting it out of their own end. This line needs that more than a Tkachuk IMO. And with that you save the necessary $ and potentially add to the futures cupboard.

The bolded part is pretty funny considering the season that 13 just had and the increased focus he showed on that part of the game, even leading to Sutter saying that he was one of the team's most responsible defensive players this season.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Giving Johnny and Tkachuk matching 8 year deals with $11 million AAV leaves the Flames only $6,050,000 million in cap space and a 14 man roster.

Mangiapane had 35 goals and Kylington broke out as a full time middle pair Dman....both also need new deals.

Lucic has a NMC
Monahan will be coming off two hip surgeries and 3 straight seasons of massive decline, also has limited trade protection.

Like I said, some miraculous wizardry will be required to keep this core intact for another go at it.

It sounds like Tanev is going to be out 4 to 6 months, so he'll be on LTIR at the start of the season. I wonder if that gives Flames the cap flexibility to work all the contracts in. If they can convince Lucic to retire, than you free up another $5.5M.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Giving Johnny and Tkachuk matching 8 year deals with $11 million AAV leaves the Flames only $6,050,000 million in cap space and a 14 man roster.

Mangiapane had 35 goals and Kylington broke out as a full time middle pair Dman....both also need new deals.

Lucic has a NMC
Monahan will be coming off two hip surgeries and 3 straight seasons of massive decline, also has limited trade protection.

Like I said, some miraculous wizardry will be required to keep this core intact for another go at it.

You can move both Lucic and Monahan. Each move requires a first round pick attached to them though unless they want to take money back, which they don't in this case.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Royle9

We cant afford both unless we can dump both the Lucic and Monahan contracts without absorbing any big cap hits in return. How do you figure we do that?
We also then cant re-sign Mangiapane

Love Tkachuk but with a 9M minimum qualifying offer, and Johnny due for 10M+ how do fill out a bottom 6 and bottom 4 D with almost 0 dollars.
For clarification I want to keep both.

Treliving has stated he will move heaven and earth to get these deals done and it is on him it make it work. Johnny and Chucky are the cornerstone superstars of the team. Other teams have multiple $10M players and the flames are at the spot they need to do the same. These are the best homegrown players of the post Iginla era of the team and if they are willing to stay for 8 years each they need to make it happen.

Mangiapane could be a sacrifice. I can see Dube being a guy who is moved. Monahan and Lucic are the prime suspects but easier said than done.

Trading Tkachuk is an option but plan C or D

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Wonder if you could engage with Lucic to re-negotiate his contract to a lower cap hit. Would he reduce his $$ by extending his term maybe? Not ideal but the pitch would be "hey, wanna win?". Same with Monahan to free up a $3-4 mill.

Not allowed.

And extending either Lucic or Monny would be shooting yourself in the head.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Treliving has stated he will move heaven and earth to get these deals done and it is on him it make it work. Johnny and Chucky are the cornerstone superstars of the team. Other teams have multiple $10M players and the flames are at the spot they need to do the same. These are the best homegrown players of the post Iginla era of the team and if they are willing to stay for 8 years each they need to make it happen.

Mangiapane could be a sacrifice. I can see Dube being a guy who is moved. Monahan and Lucic are the prime suspects but easier said than done.

Trading Tkachuk is an option but plan C or D

Right, he can say that but doing it is a whole other issue.

Cant pay Lucic 5M+
Cant pay Monahan 6M+
Cant have multiple depth forwards making 4.9M+

Teams have superstars making 9M+ in multiples but they dont have a bunch of over paid middle six wingers etc.

Very easy to say we want to do something, whole other issue making it fit.

[Jason14h]

Lucic for $1 million real money traded for a 3rd pairing D or 4th line forward making more real money but having a lower cap hit is what we will see is my prediction

Other teams have players they want to “dump” and saving 1 million in real cash to dump a 2 million cap hit and real Salary player would make sense for a non cap team

Flames save cap space and the other team saves real $$. Plus Flames get a body you hope you can turn around similar to our 3rd D pairing this year and get some performance out of

Flames may even need to eat a player with 2 years of term - someone with a 2-2.5 million salary and cap hit for the next 2 years for Lucic

Monny I think we just do fancy LTIR cheating all year ��

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Right, he can say that but doing it is a whole other issue.

Cant pay Lucic 5M+
Cant pay Monahan 6M+
Cant have multiple depth forwards making 4.9M+

Teams have superstars making 9M+ in multiples but they dont have a bunch of over paid middle six wingers etc.

Very easy to say we want to do something, whole other issue making it fit.

Yep the Tampa Bays of the NHL use a player like Coleman until he needs to be paid properly then they let him walk because they have lots of superstars making $8mil+.

We're the team that pays those middle six guys what they're worth, which has historically worked out cap wise because we've had our top guys making $6-$8mil. That's not the case going forward, but the idea that paying Gaudreau and Tkachuk what they're worth is the problem just isn't true.

It's other guys, and it would be stupid to let a star walk because you have near star money tied up in multiple middle six positions. Paying $9+mil to two star players should not be a problem with the current cap limit, and like has been mentioned the good teams in the league all have this and more tied up in 2-4 top end players.

[jayswin]

Two stars needing $9mil+ contracts is not the unique crazy expensive situation that a lot of Flames fans make it out to be, it's too much money tied up in middle six forwards, along with the Lucic and Monohan problems.

[Jason14h]

Assuming Flames want to pay $$ they can also trade Lucic for a player with a similarly bad contract but not structured with a bonus so the buyout is more team friendly and the other team gets a $1 million dollar player and real money savings

For example if a team wanted to dump a 4 million $ player they would save 3$ million is real
Money for a 1.5 million cap increase (Lucic)

Flames can then buy out the $4 million player for cap
Savings (Lucics cap - buyout amount )

[PeteMoss]

Worrying about Johnny Gaudreau signing a contract. I suddenly feel a decade younger

[2macinnis2]

It’s possible Mangiapane will be a better playoff performer than Tkachuk.

It may be very close.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Right, he can say that but doing it is a whole other issue.

Cant pay Lucic 5M+
Cant pay Monahan 6M+
Cant have multiple depth forwards making 4.9M+

Teams have superstars making 9M+ in multiples but they dont have a bunch of over paid middle six wingers etc.

Very easy to say we want to do something, whole other issue making it fit.

This is on Treliving to fix. Find a way to move the guys chewing up all that cash in the middle 6. Bscklund, Coleman, Toffoli, Monahan, Lucic are nice to have but not need to have when compared to Gaudreau and Tkachuk. Let’s see how Brad makes it work but when you have 2 star players talk about loving the city and wanting to stay then they need to make it happen. We are talking about 2 top 10 scorers in the league last year. 1 is a pending UFA that we can’t lose and the other is just 24 years old.

Lindholm is the other core forward luckily he is on one of the best non ELC deals in the league.

I think the Flames top line has the ability to be the Western version of Boston’s perfection line. Dominant for years to come. Keep them together and move on from others. Easier said than done but that is Treliving’s job