Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread 2

[PeteMoss]

I think a broad question needs to be asked as well if the drills they do in US schools for these active situations actually do anything besides traumatizing the kids?

[SportsJunky]

In case anyone forgot, Alex Jones is a bad human.

Alex Jones agrees with caller who suggests the Uvalde shooting was a false flag:

“It's very suspicious timing"

Jones:

"Everybody should be able to question this because there's been so many false flags, so many provocateured operations"

[GirlySports]

Generally, it's a bad idea to believe the initial story, or to think it's the whole story. I am having a huge disconnect between the descriptions of this incident and what you can plainly see on Google Maps about the layout of this school. Even if he was in the largest building, it's still relatively small with ground floor windows all over. It doesn't seem like a very complicated place to do tactical police ####. Of course, that also supports the idea that they thought they had him trapped in a place where he couldn't do any harm, which would be a grave miscalculation if true.

The one thing I do think is overblown is preventing the parents from going in. It can't possibly be good police work to let randoms charge into an active shooter situation. Sometimes you have to do things that seem bad for people's own good.

[CroFlames]

Those cops are ####ing cowards.

I almost can't even type these words, but the thought of the little ones cowering, or fleeing and being terrified inside as they are being slaughtered while these cowards outside WITH GUNS do nothing sickens me.

I would die to try to save my child and it makes me physically sick to think about my little one in that extreme terror situation.

Its appalling that mental images like this don't shake the collective conscious of that country to do SOMETHING about it.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Generally, it's a bad idea to believe the initial story, or to think it's the whole story. I am having a huge disconnect between the descriptions of this incident and what you can plainly see on Google Maps about the layout of this school. Even if he was in the largest building, it's still relatively small with ground floor windows all over. It doesn't seem like a very complicated place to do tactical police ####. Of course, that also supports the idea that they thought they had him trapped in a place where he couldn't do any harm, which would be a grave miscalculation if true.

The one thing I do think is overblown is preventing the parents from going in. It can't possibly be good police work to let randoms charge into an active shooter situation. Sometimes you have to do things that seem bad for people's own good.

I agree with that - but if it was my kid in there and the cops were just hanging around outside while an active shooter was in the school - I'd be trying to get in there as well.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

This scumbag can't/won't answer the tough questions. Blames something else and walks away. The level of cowardice Ted Cruz has shown in the last 10 years is amazing.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1529851537790476288

[ah123]

If you really want to raise your blood pressure…

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...smid=url-share

The article also has the NRA rating for the senators

[Wormius]

Well, how do the cops that just arrived know that they’re dealing with a scorched earth shooter or a hostage situation?

[Fuzz]

John BarrassoWyo.
N.R.A. RATING: A
CAREER N.R.A. FUNDING: $27,000
“We don’t want to take away the rights of law-abiding citizens.”

Many look like this...They have chosen freedom over having children slaughtered. That's all it comes down to. I know with the pandemic we had many discussions over trade offs to our freedoms. America is what unfettered freedom looks like, and endless children being murdered are part of that picture. Careful what you wish for.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, how do the cops that just arrived know that they’re dealing with a scorched earth shooter or a hostage situation?

I imagine it'd be pretty obvious given the volume of shots going on inside the building. Here's the timeline:

11:32 a.m.: The gunman approached the west side of the campus. When he arrives at the school, he hops a fence and enters the parking lot, shooting “at the school” while still outside.

At one point, students heard banging on a window before their teacher saw the shooter with a "big gun," a fourth-grade student who was inside the school at the time said in an interview with ABC News, describing the "nonstop" gunshots that followed.

11:40 a.m.: Ramos walked into the west side of the school through an unlocked door, Texas Department of Public Safety regional director Victor Escalon said in a press conference Thursday.

11:43 a.m.: Robb Elementary School posts to Facebook that the campus has gone under lockdown "due to gunshots in the area."

11:44 a.m.: Local police and the district police officer make entry into the school and hear gunfire. They watch the suspect walk 20 feet into the school, make a right into another hallway and then walk 20 feet, Escalon said. He then turned left into a classroom with "doors open in the middle," Escalon said.

After the gunman went into a classroom that was connected internally to a second classroom and began shooting, "That's where the carnage began," McCraw said.

The initial responding officers did not initially enter the classroom due to the gunfire they were receiving and fell back, Escalon said. While they made calls to bring in backup, officers evacuated students and teachers.

Around 12:45 p.m.: Border patrol and tactical teams arrive and make entry before shooting and killing the suspect, Escalon said. Their focus then turned into a rescue operation, Escalon said.

So basically a few officers engaged him in the school, retreated when he returned fire, and then the police (including some heavily armed ones based on the pictures and videos) waited outside for about an hour until CBP officers arrived.

[GreenLantern2814]

I am fully aware that this is a stupid ass solution that will likely cause deaths it doesn’t intend to, but the teachers need to be armed.

I’m sorry, but they do. I know the arguments against it. I don’t disagree with a single one of them.

But you don’t always get to choose the world you live in. If you’re an American teacher, you inhabit a world where kids get murdered by guns at your job with repulsive regularity.

Nobody is coming to save you. Not from the state house, not from Washington.

It’s not right, it’s not fair. And yet, there’s still the problem of the teenager with a machine gun roaming the hallways.

So get strapped. Do you want to protect these kids or not?

If I were an American teacher, I wouldn’t want to be unarmed. I wouldn’t want to huddle in the dark with a bunch of terrified pre-pubescents praying to God that none of them scream or cry, and that the door doesn’t open.

If I were an American teacher, I’d want to protect the children in my room. I’d want to look down the barrel of something at the ####wit who came to murder my kids and say “you first”.

Teachers always want to tell you what heroes they are, and no doubt many teachers have performed incredibly brave acts during the course of these attacks. But sometimes being heroic means doing things you don’t want to do for the greater good.

I get that you don’t WANT to carry a gun as a teacher, but if someone attacks your school, you’re literally the only person standing between 20 kids and the afterlife.

So grow up.

“Cell was right - you think you’re better than everyone else. But there you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles into blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you will be that you stuck true to your guns. You were a coward, to your last whimper. Of fear and love, I fear not that I will die, but that all that I have come to love - the birds, and the things that are not birds - will perish with me.”

[PeteMoss]

Go for it - but just know its probably going to do nothing if some guy comes in guns blazing. I mean they put police in these schools who are actually trained to do something about this and this guy got passed them so not sure why you think some teacher who's got less training is going to do.

And also know you're going to lose teachers who don't want to be tasked with getting into shootouts with crazy gunmen who are going to have semi-automatic assault rifles while they are fighting back with some holstered hand gun they barely know how to use.

Your scenario sounds like something from an action movie when in reality its going to be a teacher fumbling trying to get their gun while they get shot 5 times.

[Tron_fdc]

They won't legislate reform, because it's the "slippery slope" they're constantly going on about and they know it. Just this time it's on them, and it's REAL.

The instant meaningful reform is implemented gun violence WILL drop. A correlation will appear, more restrictions will happen, and sooner or later you're suddenly living in "oppressive authoritarian China" where there isn't any guns.....(but there isn't any gun violence).

GOP is a bunch of cowards. They're just afraid to admit it.

As a parent of elementary school age kids it makes me sick. These muppets who won't even CONSIDER changing gun laws should be held accountable for the violence.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I am fully aware that this is a stupid ass solution that will likely cause deaths it doesn’t intend to, but the teachers need to be armed.

I’m sorry, but they do. I know the arguments against it. I don’t disagree with a single one of them.

But you don’t always get to choose the world you live in. If you’re an American teacher, you inhabit a world where kids get murdered by guns at your job with repulsive regularity.

Nobody is coming to save you. Not from the state house, not from Washington.

It’s not right, it’s not fair. And yet, there’s still the problem of the teenager with a machine gun roaming the hallways.

So get strapped. Do you want to protect these kids or not?

If I were an American teacher, I wouldn’t want to be unarmed. I wouldn’t want to huddle in the dark with a bunch of terrified pre-pubescents praying to God that none of them scream or cry, and that the door doesn’t open.

If I were an American teacher, I’d want to protect the children in my room. I’d want to look down the barrel of something at the ####wit who came to murder my kids and say “you first”.

Teachers always want to tell you what heroes they are, and no doubt many teachers have performed incredibly brave acts during the course of these attacks. But sometimes being heroic means doing things you don’t want to do for the greater good.

I get that you don’t WANT to carry a gun as a teacher, but if someone attacks your school, you’re literally the only person standing between 20 kids and the afterlife.

So grow up.

“Cell was right - you think you’re better than everyone else. But there you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles into blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you will be that you stuck true to your guns. You were a coward, to your last whimper. Of fear and love, I fear not that I will die, but that all that I have come to love - the birds, and the things that are not birds - will perish with me.”

Great way to lose most of your best teaching talent. I used to hire a lot of very good teachers away from US schools because the conditions weren't that good. Nobody is forced to be a teacher, so telling people to ”grow up” and get a gun in preparation for a life or death encounter is also a great way of saying “maybe you should work elsewhere”. Sucks for those communities that lose great teachers.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

This scumbag can't/won't answer the tough questions. Blames something else and walks away. The level of cowardice Ted Cruz has shown in the last 10 years is amazing.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1529851537790476288

Absolute human excrement with an ivy league degree and a bible. How does anyone, let alone millions, fall for this?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

They won't legislate reform, because it's the "slippery slope" they're constantly going on about and they know it. Just this time it's on them, and it's REAL.

The instant meaningful reform is implemented gun violence WILL drop. A correlation will appear, more restrictions will happen, and sooner or later you're suddenly living in "oppressive authoritarian China" where there isn't any guns.....(but there isn't any gun violence).

GOP is a bunch of cowards. They're just afraid to admit it.

As a parent of elementary school age kids it makes me sick. These muppets who won't even CONSIDER changing gun laws should be held accountable for the violence.

And all their voters will slide right back in line once this news cycle ends and the big culture war can begin again.

Its a lost cause in the US.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Didn't they get into the classroom just by having someone with a key unlock the door? It took 40 minutes to find a staff member? What does it matter how big and heavy the door is when it can be opened by anyone with a key?

With that username I'll defer to your expertise

As you noted, there is a lot of contradictory information at this point with most recently the engagement that reportedly occurred after the accident but before him entering the school is now being reported as wrong information.

So the first responding cops show up four minutes after he entered the school unobstructed. They exchange some fire, some get hit. The shooter enters a classroom, barricades (or maybe just locks) the door. Given the chaos, I think it could take some time tracking down and retrieving the keys. Especially if the keys were in the custodial breakroom or something and they don't want to nillywilly walk through the hallways.

But even if they got the keys, somehow knew that would open it for them, what's the plan? Open the door and get shot? Shoot indiscriminately into a classroom of children?

They've entered into the reported 30 minutes "lull" where there wasn't gunfire. Reasonable to conclude the shooter has one of two intentions. He believes he has killed all the children he could and that's why he stopped and is now waiting for his last stand against the police or he has stopped killing the children (perhaps as hostages) and the police don't want to escalate it back to that point.

I think waiting for SWAT and the negotiators who are more trained, have the proper equipment, to deal with this situation was reasonable. Yes, the delay may have prevented some victims from getting timely medical aid, but bursting into a room full of children to engage in a firefight doesn't seem like a great "plan" to prevent further carnage. All it takes is one human shield to be caught in the cross-fire and everyone blaming the police for not acting quickly would be blaming them for going in guns blazing. I would be at least.

Incidentally, and extremely sadly, the interview with one of the survivors said that when the police burst open the door is when another child, who had been playing dead/hiding, was shot.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by chedder

Absolute human excrement with an ivy league degree and a bible. How does anyone, let alone millions, fall for this?

They all read from the "good book". So he's there guy, becuase it's his foundation. Reality, logic, and common sense don't play into it. Team sports are so deeply embedded into the American psyche that them wearing your colours is all that matters.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

With that username I'll defer to your expertise

As you noted, there is a lot of contradictory information at this point with most recently the engagement that reportedly occurred after the accident but before him entering the school is now being reported as wrong information.

So the first responding cops show up four minutes after he entered the school unobstructed. They exchange some fire, some get hit. The shooter enters a classroom, barricades (or maybe just locks) the door. Given the chaos, I think it could take some time tracking down and retrieving the keys. Especially if the keys were in the custodial breakroom or something and they don't want to nillywilly walk through the hallways.

But even if they got the keys, somehow knew that would open it for them, what's the plan? Open the door and get shot? Shoot indiscriminately into a classroom of children?

They've entered into the reported 30 minutes "lull" where there wasn't gunfire. Reasonable to conclude the shooter has one of two intentions. He believes he has killed all the children he could and that's why he stopped and is now waiting for his last stand against the police or he has stopped killing the children (perhaps as hostages) and the police don't want to escalate it back to that point.

I think waiting for SWAT and the negotiators who are more trained, have the proper equipment, to deal with this situation was reasonable. Yes, the delay may have prevented some victims from getting timely medical aid, but bursting into a room full of children to engage in a firefight doesn't seem like a great "plan" to prevent further carnage. All it takes is one human shield to be caught in the cross-fire and everyone blaming the police for not acting quickly would be blaming them for going in guns blazing. I would be at least.

Incidentally, and extremely sadly, the interview with one of the survivors said that when the police burst open the door is when another child, who had been playing dead/hiding, was shot.

What I read was the police called out and asked if anyone needed help and then the kid got shot when he answered - which is a particularly terrible strategy if you don't have control of the situation.

A boatload of kids got killed - waiting around was a terrible move. Its also against the findings after Columbine about how to respond.

An exhaustive FBI review of the police response at Columbine led to a more rapid response strategy during active shooter situations, according to Gagliano.



The “stark and important” lessons learned from the Columbine response, which was widely criticized, may have helped save lives Wednesday at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Gagliano said. Before the Colorado shooting, responding officers would set up a secure perimeter around the crime scene before even thinking about moving on the suspect.

In Parkland, authorities say Nikolas Cruz, 19, fatally shot 17 people at his former school before blending in with the students and staff rushing out of the school building. He was arrested in a neighboring community later in the day.

“Nowadays, what we do is go to the sound of the guns,” Gagliano said. “You get one, two, three, four people together. We’re trained. We use particular formations.”

Gagliano called it a “heterogeneous group” of first responders that could include local, state and federal agencies.

“You’re going to the sound of the guns,” he said. “The No. 1 goal is to interdict the shooter or shooters. In the old days, you took land. You went in. You clear the room. Then you slowly and methodically move to clear the next room. In this instance … get to the shooter as quickly as possible and that’s what they clearly did here.”

The tactic, known in law enforcement circles as rapid deployment involving the first officer at the scene, began in earnest after the Columbine shooting.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I am fully aware that this is a stupid ass solution that will likely cause deaths it doesn’t intend to, but the teachers need to be armed.

I’m sorry, but they do. I know the arguments against it. I don’t disagree with a single one of them.

But you don’t always get to choose the world you live in. If you’re an American teacher, you inhabit a world where kids get murdered by guns at your job with repulsive regularity.

Nobody is coming to save you. Not from the state house, not from Washington.

It’s not right, it’s not fair. And yet, there’s still the problem of the teenager with a machine gun roaming the hallways.

So get strapped. Do you want to protect these kids or not?

If I were an American teacher, I wouldn’t want to be unarmed. I wouldn’t want to huddle in the dark with a bunch of terrified pre-pubescents praying to God that none of them scream or cry, and that the door doesn’t open.

If I were an American teacher, I’d want to protect the children in my room. I’d want to look down the barrel of something at the ####wit who came to murder my kids and say “you first”.

Teachers always want to tell you what heroes they are, and no doubt many teachers have performed incredibly brave acts during the course of these attacks. But sometimes being heroic means doing things you don’t want to do for the greater good.

I get that you don’t WANT to carry a gun as a teacher, but if someone attacks your school, you’re literally the only person standing between 20 kids and the afterlife.

So grow up.

“Cell was right - you think you’re better than everyone else. But there you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles into blood stained dust, the only victory afforded to you will be that you stuck true to your guns. You were a coward, to your last whimper. Of fear and love, I fear not that I will die, but that all that I have come to love - the birds, and the things that are not birds - will perish with me.”

This is a terrible take.
Arming teachers does nothing to protect students, it puts them at greater risk. This is a "Solution" that will cause 100x more problems than it will solve.

This is the most American answer to this problem.
Guns are the problem. More guns will make the problem worse. So I guess the correct solution must be more guns.

It's guns all the way down.