Eastern Bias exists - No Gaudreau for Hart

[looooob]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So Orr I think had everything working against him that year. His team disappointed. He had good supporting cast (Esposito finishing just behind him in second place in scoring race and had won the Hart the year before). There was probably Orr fatigue (Orr had already won his Art Ross in a much more convincing fashion in 1970), Orr had his own trophy locked up in the Norris (his eighth straight) so it's not like anyone felt they would be snubbing them, and weirdly the introduction of the Leaster B. Pearson award in 1971 had not gone to Orr yet indicating to the media voters that the players themselves didn't see him as the best player (ironically it would go to Orr that year).

yeah for sure Clarke, Vachon and Parent all had great seasons, but looking back Orr was having a hell of a season- some of this could apply to McDavid too , McDavid fatigue (doesn't seem to be a thing), had Draisaitl on his team, probably underperformed relative to the Flames (how many media members had the Flames ahead of the Oilers coming into this season- honestly etc)


I guess I find all of this a bit interesting. i don't really care about Gaudreau's vote totals to be honest (I think the case for Iginla in 2002 was maybe more compelling despite the fact that the team sucked), but I guess there is evidence that even Mario, Wayne, Orr, don't automatically always get the Hart or get close to the Hart even when leading the league in scoring, so its ok if Mcdavid doesn't either (esp in years where other people have distinguished seasons)

[Icantwhisper]

Even if you include the playoffs where Shes is playing his worst hockey of the year and Markstrom is playing his best it's still .931 to .923
.008 doesn't seem like that much but .915 is Mike smith

[jammies]

Matthews should win. If you watch Toronto games, you'll see he's become decent defensively - and he scored 60 goals. Johnny should be 2nd or 3rd, and McDavid should be relegated to the KHL.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jammies

Matthews should win. If you watch Toronto games, you'll see he's become decent defensively - and he scored 60 goals. Johnny should be 2nd or 3rd, and McDavid should be relegated to the KHL.

I have nothing against Matthews being in there. To me goals > assists so anytime a player scores 60 goals in a season he's fully deserving to be in the top 3 and to his credit Matthews has become a better overall player unlike the guys in Edmonton that are more interested in stats than doing the little things that lead to winning.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I honestly dont read these stats like that. Am I missing something

I read them as with 10 more games both Saros and Markstrom maintained a level of play to have year end numbers comparable with Shesterkin.

Numbers are based on averages and this is a what if i guess but if Shesterkin played 10 more games his numbers might have dipped below the averages of Saros and Markstrom.

I think having the comparable numbers with more games played shows a sustained level of high play over a longer period but this isn't factored in I guess. I'm not arguing Shersterkin didn't have a fantastic year but if he plays 10 more games do his stats get reduced? maybe

Probably not because that's how averages work. In those 10 more games he is suddenly going to have a 4.5GAA? and let in 45 on 306 shots? because that what it would take.
He also has 1 less win in 10 games less played, he would probably pick up 6-7 wins in those 10 so now he has 45-46 wins to Markstroms 37.
53 games is a large enough sample size to say he was better.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Where were they thought to finish? By who? I thought the Flames under Sutter would finish ahead of the Oilers. The people who didn't are those we are blaming of having bias.

.

I realize this isn't a perfect survey but every place I looked had the Oilers ahead of the Flames (if division was ranked) or had at least some predictions of the Oilers winning the division but never the Flames except for John Tortarella!


and you are right these are those that are blamed of having the bias- but that seems to be the point some might be trying to make- this is the same media (collectively) that had the Oilers (with McDavid) way ahead of the Flames (with Gaudreau) but that didn't happen- obviously that is in large part kudos to Sutter but it was the masterful performance of the Flames first line that delivered the goods


https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article...021-22-season/


https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-pre...wards-2021-22/


https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nhl/...k1o3bhx0l1bhxz


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...on/5992057001/


https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...winners-awards

[Voodooman]

The "wants to watch the world burn" part of me would actually like to see McDavid win it. It's another meaningless individual accomplishment, that will make his trade request in the (hopefully very soonly) forthcoming off season all the more juicy, and the Eastern media will lose their minds when Matthews "gets robbed". James Mirtle will barely be able to type through the tears.

Tell mw those aren't both worthwhile goals...

[browna]

Originally Posted by agubuan

Connor McDavid is the Dominique Wilkins of the NHL. Puts up ungodly numbers accompanied by a human highlight reel, while middling on a fringe playoff team year in year out.

What an obscure reference. I respect it.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

The "wants to watch the world burn" part of me would actually like to see McDavid win it. It's another meaningless individual accomplishment, that will make his trade request in the (hopefully very soonly) forthcoming off season all the more juicy, and the Eastern media will lose their minds when Matthews "gets robbed". James Mirtle will barely be able to type through the tears.

Tell mw those aren't both worthwhile goals...

We are of the same thinking.

I really hope Mcdavid wins the Hart. Earlier in the season, I was actually hoping for Leon to score 60+, McDrai to finish 1 and 2 in the scoring race but then for them to either miss the playoffs or get blown out of round 1. There's gotta be some kind of poetic justice in that. The former didn't happen, but hopefully LA comes through tonight.

Like how hilarious would it be for Mcdavid to have a career where he puts up close to 2000pts, all this individual hardware, best player in the world for multiple seasons, but never made it out of round2? I love it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

McDavid finished the season playing 242 more minutes than Gaudreau (and McDavid played 2 less games).

If my math isn't totally screwed up (I'm tired) McDavid played the equivalent of 13 more games than Johnny.

If I'm being honest, that is an argument in favor of McDavid.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by looooob

I realize this isn't a perfect survey but every place I looked had the Oilers ahead of the Flames (if division was ranked) or had at least some predictions of the Oilers winning the division but never the Flames except for John Tortarella!


and you are right these are those that are blamed of having the bias- but that seems to be the point some might be trying to make- this is the same media (collectively) that had the Oilers (with McDavid) way ahead of the Flames (with Gaudreau) but that didn't happen- obviously that is in large part kudos to Sutter but it was the masterful performance of the Flames first line that delivered the goods


https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article...021-22-season/


https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-pre...wards-2021-22/


https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nhl/...k1o3bhx0l1bhxz


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...on/5992057001/


https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...winners-awards

They should all be on the Wall of Shame.

[powderjunkie]

'most valuable to his team' doesn't have to mean what most people think it does - think relative value vs. absolute value.

A $1000 scratch ticket has more value to a homeless person than a $2000 ticket does to a millionaire, but the $2k ticket is still twice as valuable.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Firebot

McDavid can have his regular season Hart and carry it around on the golf course.

Gaudreau will get the Conn Smythe

Based on what’s happened so far, if we win the cup the Conn Smythe is Markstrom’s to lose.

[cannon7]

McDavid doesn't even have the best relative Corsi on his own team, that would be Puljujarvi.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by cannon7

McDavid doesn't even have the best relative Corsi on his own team, that would be Puljujarvi.

who they are probably going to get rid of to keep Kane

[jlh2640]

I stopped caring about these awards the year Iginla got screwed. The reality is it’s whatever the eastern writers think and they don’t watch any west games. Joke of a system.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If I'm being honest, that is an argument in favor of McDavid.

Depends on how you look at it I guess. Playing more minutes and racking up more points can show you're valuable to the team because you play so much more than your inferior teammates (well except for Draisaitl). Without those minutes and points, I agree the Oilers are screwed.

Johnny playing so many less minutes (13 games worth) than McDavid and barely trailing him in points is an argument for him. On top of that you have his +/- (I know some people hate that stat but Gaudreau's 2-way play this season was fantastic) and his even strength points (the most in almost 30 years) that dwarfed McDavid.

It's a moot point anyways, one is a finalist, the other isn't. But to do what Gaudreau did 5-on-5 this season, in far few minutes and barely trail McDavid in points is unbelievably impressive. It's shame he's not even a finalist, he had an amazing year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

Based on what’s happened so far, if we win the cup the Conn Smythe is Markstrom’s to lose.

let's get out of the first round first

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Matty81

You don't need to play 80 games but 50ish is almost a platoon goalie.

When there are goalies who played 60-70 games with similar stats for me a 50 game guy who played 60% of his team's minutes shouldn't be in the conversation unless his stat line was on another planet which it wasn't. But for sure he will win being a NY player

There's five goalies who started 60 or more games. Do Hellebuyck (0.910, 2.97 GAA, 29 wins, missed playoffs, backup has 0.920, 2.58 GAA) or Demko (0.915, 2.72 GAA, 33 wins, missed playoffs, backups combined 0.917, 2.58 GAA) really deserve Vezina consideration because they stayed healthy all season? They arguably weren't even much better than their backups who posted better numbers.

Shesterkin won 36 of the 52 Rangers wins (69%) starting in 52 (63%)
Markstrom won 37 of the 50 Flames wins (74%) starting in 63 (77%)
Saros won 38 of the 45 Predators wins (84%) starting in 67 (81%)
Vasilevskiy won 39 of the 51 Lightning wins (76%) starting in 63 (77%)

I think if Shesterkin doesn't get injured in December and plays those 5 or 6 more games, all it does is give the Rangers a greater chance of toppling Carolina and maybe makes the west more interesting for us. Huska had a 0.821 save percentage against the Avalanche during one of those games Shesterkin was injured, Georgiev didn't fair much better posting 0.871 save percentage during the other Avalanche game.

I think for Hart Trophy you can easily make a case that Saros was more valuable to his team than Shesterkin. That's in part because without Saros, Nashville had to rely on Rittich. We also saw with Georgiev in net at the start of the season, despite posting a putrid 0.856 save percentage in his October and November starts, the Rangers were somehow able to go 3-1-1 in those games (though Georgiev was pulled in one of those wins). So the Rangers could win without Shesterkin as they were a good enough team.

But then we also got to clearly see how much better Shesterkin was over Georgiev. Behind the same team, Shesterkin is posting ungodly numbers while Georgiev was getting lit up. And Georiev has a history of posting respectable numbers as a backup (even better save percentage than King Henrik during the later part of their careers). So there's no room to argue that Shesterkin's numbers were a product of a stifling Rangers defense. He was just unbelievably good. Which is why the Vezina will easily go to him I think. And I'm more secured in my belief as the Vezina is voted on by GMs who as a whole normally get it right.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Matty81

You don't need to play 80 games but 50ish is almost a platoon goalie.

When there are goalies who played 60-70 games with similar stats for me a 50 game guy who played 60% of his team's minutes shouldn't be in the conversation unless his stat line was on another planet which it wasn't. But for sure he will win being a NY player

His stats is far superior. The difference in save % between him and Markstrom is bigger than between Markstrom and Mike Smith

There maybe bias but this is the wrong case to make and it’s not media voting anyway