US withdrawal from Iraq?

[Azure]

Exactly Daradon.

And it haunted them because they ran in, messed everything up, and ran back out without fixing it.

Now they ran into Iraq, but haven't ran out yet, so technically they ARE trying to fix it.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Exactly Daradon.

And it haunted them because they ran in, messed everything up, and ran back out without fixing it.

Now they ran into Iraq, but haven't ran out yet, so technically they ARE trying to fix it.

Technically, that's true. I think the problem is, as is usual in American politics, that the public is only being given two choices.

1. Stay the course. Bush has offered no indication that there's a major strategic transformation in the works. In the meantime, 80 servicemen and women have been killed in this month alone--bringing total casualties to over 3,200.
2. Pull out according to an arbitrary date, or by arbitrary benchmarks of "success." Clearly, this is an idiotic idea. As many people have said, the U.S. has implicated itself deeply, for better or for worse, in this sand trap of a war.


We can all agree that what happened was bad, and that the whole thing has been a disaster from beginning to end. But the question now should not be "how can we make our opponents suffer?" or "how can we extricate ourselves most quickly?" It should be "What can we do to improve the lives of Iraqis right now, given the situation on the ground? What can we do to create a stable, democratic, Iraq?"

Just seems like there's more politics than policy going on right now.

[Daradon]

^^^ Well of course, it's USUALLY more politics than policy, and not just in the states but governments all over the world including ours.

One of the problems with democracy, it makes being a true leader hard. Of course, for every Churchill one might get, you probably get 10 Dubya's so maybe that's not a bad thing.

I think the biggest problem in the states regarding that though, and the reason we're starting to see bigger and bigger cracks, is it costs so much to be president, and when you finally get there, you've got to repay a lot of people.

So not only are you ensuring that you might not be getting the best candidates by eliminating 98% of the population, but your making sure those that do make it, while be swallowed up by 'politics'.

[Bobblehead]

"What can we do to create a stable, democratic, Iraq?"

I have heard that question ever since the war began. I just haven't heard any solutions that have worked. Once it was "Once we remove Saddam", then was "Once they elect a government", and "Once we train a police/security force" but none of those things have decreased any of the problems.

One of the biggest issues I heard is that there isn't an exit strategy. The thing is, there still isn't. I agree that an arbitrary deadline is a recipe for disaster, but without some sort of an impetus no progress seems to be being made. The "sand trap of a war" is turning into quicksand.

[Azure]

I seriously wonder how this set withdrawal date being pushed by the Democrats will effect their election hopes come 2008.

Its no secret that they're pushing to have the troops out, which in the short run, 2 months, would give them huge political points.

But I agree with all 3 of you....way too many political games being played right now. By both sides.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

"What can we do to create a stable, democratic, Iraq?"

Cause that, even for all it's good intentions, is still the wrong question.

Do the people of Iraq WANT a democratic nation? I'm sure some of them do, but do enough of them do? Do they want democracy or freedom in the way we think of it? They probaly have a completely different concept of how they want their nation to be.

Maybe a better question would be, 'how can we help the citizens of Iraq create the nation they would like?'

It's not just splitting hairs or mincing words, it's an important distinction.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Cause that, even for all it's good intentions, is still the wrong question.

Do the people of Iraq WANT a democratic nation? I'm sure some of them do, but do enough of them do? Do they want democracy or freedom in the way we think of it? They probaly have a completely different concept of how they want their nation to be.

Maybe a better question would be, 'how can we help the citizens of Iraq create the nation they would like?'

It's not just splitting hairs or mincing words, it's an important distinction.

I agree, it is just the question I have heard, along with "Why wouldn't they want democracy?"

And the second question just highlights one of the major issues.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

"Why wouldn't they want democracy?"

That's an easy one to answer.

Democracy is the hardest and most expensives system to implemement. It offers the least security, and is sensitive to economic, cultural, religious, historical, and geopolitical factors.

There's nothing about democracy that indicates it is for everyone, or that it is a natural right. It's barely existed anywhere in the world for any amount of time, except in a few geographic areas.

It's complete arrogance for any nation to think they can implement anywhere when those factors are not met.

(For the record, I don't think the Americans were arrogant in that regard, because I don't think that was the actual intention of the invasion.)

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Cause that, even for all it's good intentions, is still the wrong question.

Do the people of Iraq WANT a democratic nation? I'm sure some of them do, but do enough of them do? Do they want democracy or freedom in the way we think of it? They probaly have a completely different concept of how they want their nation to be.

Maybe a better question would be, 'how can we help the citizens of Iraq create the nation they would like?'

It's not just splitting hairs or mincing words, it's an important distinction.

That's a good point. Perhaps a better question is how do you create a stable, self-governed Iraq?

I also agree that the absence of an exit strategy has been a problem. But is it realistic to, in the absence of an exit strategy, to just... suddenly exit? I don't know. I guess it depends on whether having the troops there is a net good or a net bad. I don't know how to answer that question either.

[Azure]

If democracy gives me freedom, then yes I think it should be a natural right.

I happen to think that human beings were born as free men, not as slaves to some tyranny or dictatorship who uses his power to control us.

But I also think human beings cannot govern themselves, so they do need some form of government. Some like more government, some less.

I think the Iraqi people need to get their collective asses together, and secure the country. Then worry about what form of government they want.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

That's a good point. Perhaps a better question is how do you create a stable, self-governed Iraq?

I also agree that the absence of an exit strategy has been a problem. But is it realistic to, in the absence of an exit strategy, to just... suddenly exit? I don't know. I guess it depends on whether having the troops there is a net good or a net bad. I don't know how to answer that question either.

It is hard to answer. But for now, I'll stick with the fact that leaving right now is the worst possible thing the US could do.

Even worse then setting a time line for troop withdrawal.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

If democracy gives me freedom, then yes I think it should be a natural right.
.

Why would it be a natural right? It's a man-made invention (a recent one at that). Nature is a cruel and unforgiving beast. If anything, democracy is unnatural and that is why it relies on specific and rare circumstances to work and survive.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Why would it be a natural right? It's a man-made invention (a recent one at that). Nature is a cruel and unforgiving beast. If anything, democracy is unnatural and that is why it relies on specific and rare circumstances to work and survive.

Freedom is a natural right?

I hope you would agree.

Is there any other form of government, outside of anarchism that provides freedom in the manner democracy does?

I mean, democracy has its failures too, but it is by far the best system for human beings. By far.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

Freedom is a natural right?

I hope you would agree.

Is there any other form of government, outside of anarchism that provides freedom in the manner democracy does?

I mean, democracy has its failures too, but it is by far the best system for human beings. By far.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Freedom is a natural desire, but not a natural right. It has to be earned, and to work on a societal level, it has to be culturally instilled (usually over the course of centuries). IMO, the only natural right we have is to exercise our will to survive and pro-create. Anything that has been constructed by humans in the past few centuries has been a removal from nature for the most part.

In nature, humans are heirarchial animals. The amount of freedom an individual has is dependent on their ability to exert power over the individuals below them. You can look anywhere in history to see this - from prehistoric humans, all the way up through civilization until now. Even as we speak, the majority of the humans on this planet do not have "free" societies and never have.

In a lot of ways, the world still works like this (with many "democratic" countries being the ones exerting power and control over lesser developed societies).

[Daradon]

Wow, I hope I got skill points for that one... I haven't had that many people agree since... (and delete all skill points...) lol

That is the thing. Is democracy a right? I don't think so, it's is earned. Some countries through war, some through negotitians and cooperation.

After that, does every country WANT democracy? Do they accept our ideals of free society?

We got a good thing, but do we have moral and societal superiority? Of course not. How can we (or in this case, the U.S.) impose it's will of 'free society'?

How 'free' is it? Did they ask to be invaded? Did they ask to be liberated? Do they even have the same values we do?

In a war, we use symbols as propaganda. Can your 'liberators' tell us the Iraqi people even use the same symbols. We bomb bombs, then bomb leaflets, ignorng all culture and want.

For better or worse, the values are different. And no one asked them.

We can't liberate it, because it didn't need or want liberating. Did it want to get rid of Saddam? Probably. Did it want 'Western Freedom' (and capitalism). I doubt it.

The only thing (being the tree nazi now) that needed liberating, was the oil supply.

[Azure]

The way things are going right now, it is doubtful that they 'want' the freedom we enjoy.

But is that because of the ignorance they have towards Western society, as well as our ignorance towards their culture and way of life?

I find it hard to believe that people don't want freedom.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Daradon

That is the thing. Is democracy a right? I don't think so, it's is earned. Some countries through war, some through negotitians and cooperation.

After that, does every country WANT democracy? Do they accept our ideals of free society?

By the looks of things, all this talk about spreading demorcracy is a lot of rich creamery butter. They wouldn't be happy with the results anyway. Hezbollah, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups would do well in elections, and we know how well it goes over in Washington when that happens.

And besides, if democracy were to spread, the people in Saudi Arabia and Egypt might get uppity, and we can't have that.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

The way things are going right now, it is doubtful that they 'want' the freedom we enjoy.

But is that because of the ignorance they have towards Western society, as well as our ignorance towards their culture and way of life?

I find it hard to believe that people don't want freedom.

Ironically, Iraqi society was probably less anti-West before the invasion. Iraq was actually a pretty big importer of western culture under Saddam Hussein, and his Sunni dominated party banned many anti-west sentiments.

By alienating Sunnis, the U.S. has increased the anti-western attitude 10 fold. They made up some ground among Kurds, whose politcal parties actually had an affinity towards Marxism before the invasion, but the Shi'ites seem as anti-West as ever.