Norris finalists announced

[FlamesAddiction]

I would be hard pressed to think of any defenseman in the league outside of Makar and Josi who drive the play as much as they do. Makar in particular looks dangerous every time he has to puck in the O-zone.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I would be hard pressed to think of any defenseman in the league outside of Makar and Josi who drive the play as much as they do. Makar in particular looks dangerous every time he has to puck in the O-zone.

Building a team with Makar versus Mackinnon isn’t a slam dunk choice any more.

[codynw]

Nobody talking about this blatant Gudbranson snub smh

[Philly06Cup]

Makar is great. But... Something people don't talk about enough is how much he benefits from playing on a stacked team and with Mackinnon / Rantanen / (Landeskog / Nichuskin).

-Most coaches rotate their defensemen and forwards independent of each other. Not in Colorado. Basically anytime the Mackinnon/Rantanen line is on the ice, the coach pairs them with Makar/Toews. They are a 5 man unit 5on5.

-Look at Devon Toews. He was an average defenseman for NYI. In Colorado, he's constantly paired with MacKinnon/Rantanen/Makar -- and now he looks like a superstar.

-Makar gets a ton of points. His advanced stats look amazing. But a huge product of that is who he plays with.

Fancy stats chart for those interested. Makar's two years in Colorado; about half of his icetime is with the top line, and his stats drop a significant amount when he is away from them.

On the flip side, Josi gets paired with all of his teammates equally. His advanced stats will look worse because of it. He is definitively the one who stirs the drink.

[Enoch Root]

That is all true, but first of all, most good players in the league benefit from playing with other good players - does Matthews score 60 if he isn't playing with Marner, for example? And second, who is benefitting from who in Colorado?

If you watch them play, it isn't Makar benefitting from playing with Rantanaen and Landeskog, so much as it is them benefitting from playing with him.

He completely controls the play and sets the table for them, when he is on the ice. More so than Josi does. Josi is great, all over the ice - no disputing that. But Makar is running the show like Bobby Orr right now.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Makar is great. But... Something people don't talk about enough is how much he benefits from playing on a stacked team and with Mackinnon / Rantanen / (Landeskog / Nichuskin).

-Most coaches rotate their defensemen and forwards independent of each other. Not in Colorado. Basically anytime the Mackinnon/Rantanen line is on the ice, the coach pairs them with Makar/Toews. They are a 5 man unit 5on5.

-Look at Devon Toews. He was an average defenseman for NYI. In Colorado, he's constantly paired with MacKinnon/Rantanen/Makar -- and now he looks like a superstar.

-Makar gets a ton of points. His advanced stats look amazing. But a huge product of that is who he plays with.

Fancy stats chart for those interested. Makar's two years in Colorado; about half of his icetime is with the top line, and his stats drop a significant amount when he is away from them.

On the flip side, Josi gets paired with all of his teammates equally. His advanced stats will look worse because of it. He is definitively the one who stirs the drink.

I've never looked at it that way, and I don't doubt it's true.

But by god, the eye test shows all those guys benefit playing with Makar, and not the other way around. He's explosive, cerebral, creative and structured. He's basically a perfect player, and he's barely out of high school

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Fancy stats chart for those interested. Makar's two years in Colorado; about half of his icetime is with the top line, and his stats drop a significant amount when he is away from them.

That chart does a nice job of making MacKinnon look like a product of Rantanen and Makar more than anything else. Away from them his CF sucks. And Makar and Rantanen have a better CF without MacKinnon than with him.

Makar has a better CF without either of them (54.23) than they have alone (Ratanen 53.58, MacKinnon 45.61).

[Philly06Cup]

I think Makar is phenomenal. But some of the god tier praise is a little much. It certainly helps playing over half of his minutes with MacKinnon/Rantanen.



Charlie McAvoy is another guy with out-of-this-world fancy stats. What a coincidence -- he gets a huge share of icetime with Berger/Marchand/Pasta.

[McG]

Drove by for Nurse reference; left satisfied.

[Philly06Cup]

Josi meanwhile has a pretty equal distribution with all of Nashville's forwards. They only have one top-tier player in Forsberg, and then three hasbeens in Duchene/Johansen/Granlund.



Josi clearly had the best season among rearwards. He killed it in points. He willed his team to the playoffs. He led three hasbeen free in the expansion draft players to resurgent years. The only argument for Makar would be his better defense, which I would argue is a big product of their linemates.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Josi meanwhile has a pretty equal distribution with all of Nashville's forwards. They only have one top-tier player in Forsberg, and then three hasbeens in Duchene/Johansen/Granlund.



Josi clearly had the best season among rearwards. He killed it in points. He willed his team to the playoffs. He led three hasbeen free in the expansion draft players to resurgent years. The only argument for Makar would be his better defense, which I would argue is a big product of their linemates.

Oh, to me this is Josi's award this year. He's been great.

My praise for Makar was more pointing out how good he is already, at such a young age. He'll win multiple Norris' after Josi takes it this year (and deservedly so).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is all true, but first of all, most good players in the league benefit from playing with other good players - does Matthews score 60 if he isn't playing with Marner, for example? And second, who is benefitting from who in Colorado?

If you watch them play, it isn't Makar benefitting from playing with Rantanaen and Landeskog, so much as it is them benefitting from playing with him.

He completely controls the play and sets the table for them, when he is on the ice. More so than Josi does. Josi is great, all over the ice - no disputing that. But Makar is running the show like Bobby Orr right now.

MacKinnon missed almost 20 games this season and it had no effect on Makar. IMO he's the best player on that team and one of a small handful of players in this league you can build a franchise around.

[RyZ]

Just to heap more praise on Makar, a guy on Fan960 last week said he is the highest scoring defenseman (goals and points) through his first 175 NHL games in history. He could be beyond generational and into being a Gretzky/Lemieux level legendary Dman as he rounds into his prime. He deserves all the accolades he is getting.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Just to heap more praise on Makar, a guy on Fan960 last week said he is the highest scoring defenseman (goals and points) through his first 175 NHL games in history. He could be beyond generational and into being a Gretzky/Lemieux level legendary Dman as he rounds into his prime. He deserves all the accolades he is getting.

Orr only had 136 points in his first 3 seasons (174 games) compared to Makar's 180 (in 178 games). That said, I kinda doubt Makar reels off 120 points in his 4th season like Bobby did. Or 139 in his 5th.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Orr only had 136 points in his first 3 seasons (174 games) compared to Makar's 180 (in 178 games). That said, I kinda doubt Makar reels off 120 points in his 4th season like Bobby did. Or 139 in his 5th.

Never say never.

Ovi never reached 92 or 84 goals in a season. But he's going to be awfully close to 894 when it's all said and done.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Never say never.

Ovi never reached 92 or 84 goals in a season. But he's going to be awfully close to 894 when it's all said and done.

I'd be pretty comfortable with a bet that 139 points is unreachable for Makar in his 5th season. The last guy to get that many was named Mario and before him a guy named Wayne.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Orr only had 136 points in his first 3 seasons (174 games) compared to Makar's 180 (in 178 games). That said, I kinda doubt Makar reels off 120 points in his 4th season like Bobby did. Or 139 in his 5th.

Yeah, 139 is probably out of reach - maybe the greatest season in the history of the NHL.

However, I think 100 point seasons are definitely within his reach. He is a special player.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yeah, 139 is probably out of reach - maybe the greatest season in the history of the NHL.

However, I think 100 point seasons are definitely within his reach. He is a special player.

Maybe - it's only been done 14 times, by only 5 guys, and not since 1992.

ETA: Paul Coffey came damn close to 139, but he was on a way more stacked team. That somehow lost in the POs. LOL

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'd be pretty comfortable with a bet that 139 points is unreachable for Makar in his 5th season. The last guy to get that many was named Mario and before him a guy named Wayne.

What I meant was Makar probably doesn't put up the single season point totals that Bobby did, but Makar could become the highest scoring D-man ever because of his consistent point totals each season. Sorry.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

What I meant was Makar probably doesn't put up the single season point totals that Bobby did, but Makar could become the highest scoring D-man ever because of his consistent point totals each season. Sorry.

Maybe. He'd be up against Bourque's 1579. Looking at career stats makes Orr's numbers even more ridiculous. 915 points in 657 games.

https://records.nhl.com/records/skat...enseman-career