PROOF that Evolution is a Myth

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cheese

LOL...where do you dig this stuff up? Do you have proof or links to anything?
What IS an Atheist upbringing to you?

I was brought up Atheist, I was 100% sure God didn't exist. I converted to Christianity less than 6 months after I moved out when I graduated.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I was brought up Atheist, I was 100% sure God didn't exist. I converted to Christianity less than 6 months after I moved out when I graduated.

Yes? we do lose some people...but FAR less than the other way around. Do you think you were well versed as an Atheist? Did you actually study religions at that time and try to understand the issues? Or were you as you suggested, not reared in any way or fashion?
Chances are you will give up Christianity later as you learn more about it.

Perhaps as a convert you can answer the series of questions I posted on the other page? Would be real interesting to try and understand where you stand.

There is strong anecdotal evidence of a conversion asymmetry between atheism and the world's largest religion, Christianity. Many Christians (including ministers and priests, and theologians) convert to atheism even though while still Christians they had been well-versed in Christian apologetics. By contrast, it is very hard to find atheists who converted to Christianity even though while still atheists they had been well-versed in the arguments against Christianity. If the best atheistic arguments against Christianity are better than the best Christian arguments against atheism, then such an asymmetry is precisely what one would expect. The best arguments of atheism would then tend to inoculate their atheist hearers against Christianity, whereas the best arguments of Christianity would be generally unable to inoculate their Christian hearers against atheism.

Atheist Deconversion

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by evman150

Maybe it's just my view on this, but morals are not (should not?) be indoctrinated into you. They are just part of being a good person. Follow the law, be kind to others. Either do it or don't do it. But don't just do it because something is going to happen to you if you don't. Do it because you believe it is the right thing to do.

If they are not indoctrinated, how the hell else do you learn to be a good person? You don't just wake up in the morning at 15 years old and decide " wow, I think I am going to be a good boy from now on". Parents have the right and responsiblity of shaping a childs mind. How are kids supposed to know what is wrong to do if you dont tell them? The manual for how life works isn't actually included when we are born. Our parents teach it to us.

Who is in the right? Bob next door teaching his kid that premaritial sex is bad, or with Suzy down the street who is trying to stop her 15year old son from sodomizing the cat. You know damn well that 99% of this board would agree that raping a cat should be something that should be taught as wrong. Does that mean that you shouldn't teach your kids this stuff? Just because you think that you shouldn't indoctrinate your kids?

You can't have it both ways. You teach your kids what is wrong! Period. They are not going to learn it from someone else. You can carry on and think that teaching your kids right from wrong, in religious form or not, but you are doing them a far worse disservice by not teaching them what is wrong than by teaching them it. I promise you.

Unless you want to be the one going to the police station when they are 17 because they were got caught doing B&E's to support their coke habit. Or testifying at thier trial when they knifed a guy in the alley on 17th Ave when they get into a fight. Send your kid to jail for 15 years when they are 20 years old, then they get to learn what REAL rape is. I am sure they will thank you for not intelecually raping them as kids by teaching them right from wrong.

Peace.

[HockeyPuck]

nm

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Rathji

If they are not indoctrinated, how the hell else do you learn to be a good person? You don't just wake up in the morning at 15 years old and decide " wow, I think I am going to be a good boy from now on". Parents have the right and responsiblity of shaping a childs mind. How are kids supposed to know what is wrong to do if you dont tell them? The manual for how life works isn't actually included when we are born. Our parents teach it to us.

Who is in the right? Bob next door teaching his kid that premaritial sex is bad, or with Suzy down the street who is trying to stop her 15year old son from sodomizing the cat. You know damn well that 99% of this board would agree that raping a cat should be something that should be taught as wrong. Does that mean that you shouldn't teach your kids this stuff? Just because you think that you shouldn't indoctrinate your kids?

You can't have it both ways. You teach your kids what is wrong! Period. They are not going to learn it from someone else. You can carry on and think that teaching your kids right from wrong, in religious form or not, but you are doing them a far worse disservice by not teaching them what is wrong than by teaching them it. I promise you.

Unless you want to be the one going to the police station when they are 17 because they were got caught doing B&E's to support their coke habit. Or testifying at thier trial when they knifed a guy in the alley on 17th Ave when they get into a fight. Send your kid to jail for 15 years when they are 20 years old, then they get to learn what REAL rape is. I am sure they will thank you for not intelecually raping them as kids by teaching them right from wrong.

Peace.

My argument, is that religion is not necessary to instill good morals in children.

For if it were necessary, we'd notice differing decisions from Atheists and the religious when it comes to moral intuitions. Numerous studies have shown that being "good" and knowing the difference between right and wrong cross over geographical, cultural and religious barriers.

I've also read about the Darwinian morality theories which explore why it is most certainly advantageous to be good to others as it enhances the so-called "survival value" of that species.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rathji

If they are not indoctrinated, how the hell else do you learn to be a good person? You don't just wake up in the morning at 15 years old and decide " wow, I think I am going to be a good boy from now on". Parents have the right and responsiblity of shaping a childs mind. How are kids supposed to know what is wrong to do if you dont tell them? The manual for how life works isn't actually included when we are born. Our parents teach it to us.

Who is in the right? Bob next door teaching his kid that premaritial sex is bad, or with Suzy down the street who is trying to stop her 15year old son from sodomizing the cat. You know damn well that 99% of this board would agree that raping a cat should be something that should be taught as wrong. Does that mean that you shouldn't teach your kids this stuff? Just because you think that you shouldn't indoctrinate your kids?

You can't have it both ways. You teach your kids what is wrong! Period. They are not going to learn it from someone else. You can carry on and think that teaching your kids right from wrong, in religious form or not, but you are doing them a far worse disservice by not teaching them what is wrong than by teaching them it. I promise you.

Unless you want to be the one going to the police station when they are 17 because they were got caught doing B&E's to support their coke habit. Or testifying at thier trial when they knifed a guy in the alley on 17th Ave when they get into a fight. Send your kid to jail for 15 years when they are 20 years old, then they get to learn what REAL rape is. I am sure they will thank you for not intelecually raping them as kids by teaching them right from wrong.

Peace.

I think you miread his post Rathji...he was talking about having religious morals "indoctrinated" into children.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ah Fly...you should get into politics the way you spin things...seriously!

If God is...

a) omniscient - he knows of all evil

b) omnibenevolent - he desires the abscence of evil

c) omnipotent - he has the power to eliminate evil

then why is there evil?

Or better yet....do you believe that your God is not an Omnimax God? You do understand the actual meaning of the words above?

What say you about this......(Not my words and not necessarily all of my thoughts)...but certainly thought provoking.

.....

I love the way you always make things personal, Cheese. Do you know how to have an argument without poking fun of my person based on things you've learned previously? You should really learn. You're old enough now.

What say I about that? It's circular logic by the atheists, for the atheists.

Do I believe our God is omnimax? Yes. Do I understand the meaning of the words above? Yes. Why is there still evil in the world? Some things are apparently too complicated for you to understand...

If life was fields and fairies, would we believe in God? What then would be human nature? Seems like that would be a world with no free will. Just because He can see what happens, and could change it, does that mean He should? Christians often struggle with the fact that there is pain and suffering in the world, and yet God could erase it if He so desired. I'm no different.

What do you suppose the book of Revelation predicts?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I love the way you always make things personal, Cheese. Do you know how to have an argument without poking fun of my person based on things you've learned previously? You should really learn. You're old enough now.

What say I about that? It's circular logic by the atheists, for the atheists.

Do I believe our God is omnimax? Yes. Do I understand the meaning of the words above? Yes. Why is there still evil in the world? Some things are apparently too complicated for you to understand...

If life was fields and fairies, would we believe in God? What then would be human nature? Seems like that would be a world with no free will. Just because He can see what happens, and could change it, does that mean He should? Christians often struggle with the fact that there is pain and suffering in the world, and yet God could erase it if He so desired. I'm no different.

What do you suppose the book of Revelation predicts?

I make fun of you because its so easy fly. You NEVER answer a question, and always use CIRCULAR Logic<sic> to attempt your explanations. Noone understands what you try to say. Explain the circular logic represented in the statments made above and try to answer the questions I laid out a few pages ago.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I think you miread his post Rathji...he was talking about having religious morals "indoctrinated" into children.

Personally, I consider all the examples I gave choices based on religious morals. Beastiality, Sodomy, Extramarital Sex, Theft, are all very clearly defined as against Gods will. As far as I am aware, there is no circumstance where a (reasonable) religion claims God supports any of these. The reason these things are generally considered wrong is that they are against societal norms(or have been for the majority of mans existance). This is due to Christianity/Judaism/Muslim etc. influence over the way our modern society developed.

Basicly, in teaching your kids right from wrong, you are teaching them religious values, even if you don't agree with the religion itself. Just because you don't want to tell your kid to stop banging his 16 year old girlfriend doesn't change this fact.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I make fun of you because its so easy fly. You NEVER answer a question, and always use CIRCULAR Logic<sic> to attempt your explanations. Noone understands what you try to say. Explain the circular logic represented in the statments made above and try to answer the questions I laid out a few pages ago.

Making fun of me has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Make fun of my argument. You're old enough to know the difference between the two. And frankly, I don't feel like I need to explain my beliefs to you. I have answered your questions in the past and I get the same response every time. So why bother? There is NO PROOF that God exists, or does not exist. You choose to believe He does not exist. That's your right. It takes just as much faith to believe in nothing as it does to believe in something. That's a point you fail to understand.

How's this... There are assumptions made in the argument you presented, as much as there are assumptions in any argument I would be able to present to counter it. As such, it's all circular logic. If you can't see the assumptions made, then I can't help you.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Making fun of me has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Make fun of my argument. You're old enough to know the difference between the two. And frankly, I don't feel like I need to explain my beliefs to you. I have answered your questions in the past and I get the same response every time. So why bother? There is NO PROOF that God exists, or does not exist. You choose to believe He does not exist. That's your right. It takes just as much faith to believe in nothing as it does to believe in something. That's a point you fail to understand.

How's this... There are assumptions made in the argument you presented, as much as there are assumptions in any argument I would be able to present to counter it. As such, it's all circular logic. If you can't see the assumptions made, then I can't help you.

and you madame are old enough not to wade into a gun fight without a gun. My comments are tongue in cheek and you know it.
You didnt answer anything specifically...general comments just dont work. I try to lay it out ..you dont and never do. Thats the problem.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Personally, I consider all the examples I gave choices based on religious morals. Beastiality, Sodomy, Extramarital Sex, Theft, are all very clearly defined as against Gods will. As far as I am aware, there is no circumstance where a (reasonable) religion claims God supports any of these. The reason these things are generally considered wrong is that they are against societal norms(or have been for the majority of mans existance). This is due to Christianity/Judaism/Muslim etc. influence over the way our modern society developed.

Basicly, in teaching your kids right from wrong, you are teaching them religious values, even if you don't agree with the religion itself. Just because you don't want to tell your kid to stop banging his 16 year old girlfriend doesn't change this fact.

wow...so what you are saying is...as you were growing up in an atheist family you saw your parents involved in bestiality?
Nothing you suggested has anything to do with Christianity specifically, unless you wish to disuss where they borrowed their version of ethics from?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Personally, I consider all the examples I gave choices based on religious morals. Beastiality, Sodomy, Extramarital Sex, Theft, are all very clearly defined as against Gods will. As far as I am aware, there is no circumstance where a (reasonable) religion claims God supports any of these. The reason these things are generally considered wrong is that they are against societal norms(or have been for the majority of mans existance). This is due to Christianity/Judaism/Muslim etc. influence over the way our modern society developed.

We don't need divine guidance to tell us that we shouldn't sodomize the house pets, cheat on our wife or stick up a liquor store.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Chances are you will give up Christianity later as you learn more about it.

I converted 12 years ago, if I was going to have given it up I would have done so by now.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Perhaps as a convert you can answer the series of questions I posted on the other page? Would be real interesting to try and understand where you stand.

Some questions for our religious friends, with no malcontent involved.
Can you answer these questions?

Define God

God is the creator of the universe, all worlds and life on all those worlds. Everything you ever see, hear, or could ever hope to see was created by him.

Omnimax Omnimax = All Good, All knowing, All powerfull

Omnipotent, however you want to spell or spin it. He knows everything. In fact he knows everything that will happen as well.

Objective Standard of Morality

There are laws that God created, he is obligated to to follow them as long as wel follow them. If we follow them, we will recieve the rewards of these laws. If we do not follow them, we cannot recieve the rewards for it. ie God can't feel sorry for us and reward us if we didn't follow the 'rule'. This might be hard to understand, but this topic could be discussed for days on end without being complete.

God is pure goodness and pure love. He created everything and when he did he knew that Lucifer would be revolt and fight against the heavens. Without evil, there can be no good. Just as without darkness there can be no light. Evil tempts us, if we were not tempted we could not learn.

Free Will

Free will is just that, free choice to do what you want. Despite God knowing what you will do, it doesn't change the fact that it is your choice. No one is forcing you to do what you are doing. You always have a choice. Without evil, there would not really be free will, we would all be doing the good thing because that is the only thing there would be to do. If you remove the choice, you no longer have free will. This is one of the most important aspects of God's plan.

The Bible

Given than the bible has been translated many many times from various languages, it would be foolhardy to think that it is the actual word of God. It was at one point though, and I do believe that as far as it was translated correctly, it is the word of God.

The Flood

Some things I need to take on faith. I personally don't go around looking for evidence of everything claimed in the bible. If you had evidence, you wouldn't need faith. People who expect God to give them a sign or something are pretty much outta luck.

Evolution

I wasn't there, but my personal opinion is that the bible says the earth was created in 6 days. It doesn't give an acurate account of how long a day was, so these can be considered periods of time. So in 6 periods of time, God set forth the events to create the earth as we observe it today. I highly doubt anyone would claim that God made every flower, or every seed that was planted. It is much more likely that he set in motion a series of events which led to the evolution of Man as we know it today. I personally think that it wasn't from the primordal ooze, but that's just semantics

Atheism

It means you do not believe in God. I don't think you can debate the definition of a word clearly defined in many places.

____________

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We don't need divine guidance to tell us that we shouldn't sodomize the house pets, cheat on our wife or stick up a liquor store.

Of course we don't, I wasn't claiming that. I am simply saying that when you are teaching your kids the difference between right and wrong, you ARE teaching them the principles that God outlined for us thousands of years ago. Even if you think God is a hoax, you are still passing those principles onto your children. Those principles are the foundation of our society, like it or not.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Nothing you suggested has anything to do with Christianity specifically, unless you wish to disuss where they borrowed their version of ethics from?

In fact, everything I suggested was derived directly from what most consider God's commandments. I assume you don't honestly need me to point our where Christians borrow their version of ethics from, but if you do I will list one source: The Bible

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

If God is...

a) omniscient - he knows of all evil

b) omnibenevolent - he desires the abscence of evil

c) omnipotent - he has the power to eliminate evil

then why is there evil?

Well that's an easy one to answer, and the key is in the question.
You said "IF" god is all of the below.
Well the answer is simple. Assuming God exists, then he must not be one of the things you stated, and that would be b) Omnibenevolent,
Either that, or he chooses sees free will (yes I know your agrguement about free will not existing, so leave it out), as more important than elliminating evil.

Here's a question for you, as I believe you have children it should apply to you nicely.

If a good parent beleives:
1) they love their child
2) Love means ensuring no harm comes to their child
3) Harm can come from letting your child out of the house

Then why do you let your kids out of the house.
Must not be a good parent.

I can prove just about anything with flawed logic.

PS. you want to by my rock that keeps tigers away?

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Objective Standard of Morality

There are laws that God created, he is obligated to to follow them as long as wel follow them. If we follow them, we will recieve the rewards of these laws. If we do not follow them, we cannot recieve the rewards for it. ie God can't feel sorry for us and reward us if we didn't follow the 'rule'. This might be hard to understand, but this topic could be discussed for days on end without being complete.

I have a question.

Let's say John Smith is an Atheist. He wasn't baptized, but was raised in a Christian household. He's open to the idea of God, but after years of searching for evidence, finds overwhelming support in evolution and science instead, leading to his logic-based decision that on facts alone and strong supporting theories, God cannot possibly exist.

He lives a good life. He helps those in need, and everything he does would be within the "rules" of the 10 Commandments. And then he dies.

Why should he go to hell, just because he didn't believe in something which he found no evidence of?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Of course we don't, I wasn't claiming that. I am simply saying that when you are teaching your kids the difference between right and wrong, you ARE teaching them the principles that God outlined for us thousands of years ago. Even if you think God is a hoax, you are still passing those principles onto your children. Those principles are the foundation of our society, like it or not.

God outlined them where? In the bible?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Well that's an easy one to answer, and the key is in the question.
You said "IF" god is all of the below.
Well the answer is simple. Assuming God exists, then he must not be one of the things you stated, and that would be b) Omnibenevolent,
Either that, or he chooses sees free will (yes I know your agrguement about free will not existing, so leave it out), as more important than elliminating evil.

Here's a question for you, as I believe you have children it should apply to you nicely.

If a good parent beleives:
1) they love their child
2) Love means ensuring no harm comes to their child
3) Harm can come from letting your child out of the house

Then why do you let your kids out of the house.
Must not be a good parent.

I can prove just about anything with flawed logic.

PS. you want to by my rock that keeps tigers away?

Good post...

LOL...I would think it hard not to assume a God, any God is not Omnibenevolent...
Benevolent = accommodating, advantageous, affable, affectionate, all-heart, altruistic, amiable, amicable, approachable, auspicious, beneficent, benign, benignant, big, big-hearted, bleeding heart, bounteous, bountiful, bright, broad-minded, caring, charitable, chivalrous, clement, compassionate, complaisant, comprehending, comradely, congenial, considerate, cordial, courteous, dexter, disinterested, do-good, easy, eleemosynary, encouraging, favorable, forgiving, fortunate, fraternal, friendly, gracious, generous, genial, gentle, good-humored, good, good-natured, greathearted, helpful, heroic, humane, humanitarian, indulgent, intimate, kind, kindly, kind-hearted, lavish, lenient, liberal, lofty, lucky, magnanimous, merciful, mild, neighborly, noble, obliging, openhanded, personal, philanthropic, pleasant, polite, princely, propitious, salutary, self-sacrificing, selfless, sociable, sympathetic, tender, tender-hearted, thoughtful, tolerant, understanding, unselfish, urbane, warm, warm-hearted, well-disposed

Hence, "benevolent" basically means "nice." Hence, "omnibenevolent" = "all nice."...taking it further...desirous of no evil.

As to the family question...I love my wife too and I let her out! Heck I love my pets and treat them the same. But that doesnt make me Omnibenevolent....yet.
Not sure where you want to take the point too...but im all ears and fingers!

[MacDougalbry]

...deleted

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

I have a question.

Let's say John Smith is an Atheist. He wasn't baptized, but was raised in a Christian household. He's open to the idea of God, but after years of searching for evidence, finds overwhelming support in evolution and science instead, leading to his logic-based decision that on facts alone and strong supporting theories, God cannot possibly exist.

He lives a good life. He helps those in need, and everything he does would be within the "rules" of the 10 Commandments. And then he dies.

Why should he go to hell, just because he didn't believe in something which he found no evidence of?

As I am sure is clear it what I said, that someone who followed the 'rules' would receive the rewards of following those rules. If it wasn't I am sorry. In my opinion, he would not go to hell. Last I checked I wasn't the judge though. By the way, to clarify, the rules are far more encompassing than the 10 commandments, in fact in my opinion the principles taught by Christ are FAR more important and encompass more than the 10 commandments.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

God outlined them where? In the bible?

More or less, yes. God communicated his commandments through his prophets, apostles and Christ as they ministered on the earth. A large portion of these ministerings can be found in the pages of the Bible. I say a portion because I am sure somewhere something else was written regarding the things that happened that was not abridged into the Bible proper.