Russia invades Ukraine

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

What ends up happening though is that we all go off on a tangent and start debating about a bunch of stuff that isn't relevant.

That's why whataboutism is infuriating. The end result is to distract deflect and minimize the original discussion.

Maybe I've just reached a point generally where I'm overly sensitive to it and wanted to say something. Several of my friends lately have been resorting to using it to "prove" points, and it just drives me insane.

And then on top of it the recent news coming out of Ukraine the last few weeks is just awful. And I don't want Russia to get even the slightest bit of reprieve.

TL;DR Slava Ukraine.

The point of the "whataboutism" is that we should hold ourselves and our allies to the same standards, being outraged when Russia commits the same acts in war that occurred in Iraq comes across as biased.
Easy to hate the enemy, harder to admit we've done the same. war sucks, if Iraqis had a way to show you the horror of US shelling and missile strikes in real time you might feel the same about that war.
New york times had an article about the Ukraine using cluster bombs to recapture one of their cities, haven't seem that mentioned here. (Not by any means taking a Russian side in all this)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

200,000 for reference

It brings up the question of intent again. However, the vast majority of the civilian casualties in Iraq (like 98%) were from the resulting instability and the various insurgencies (that were funded by Iraq, SA, Qatar, Russia, etc..) and not directly form American forces. Once again, the American invasion was totally reckless and should have taken that into consideration before the invasion, or maybe they did and went ahead anyways.

[FlameOn]

MOD and map updates for the day. Heavy fighting today across the Donetsk front with Russian forces fully taking control of Kremmina while attempting to encircle the Ukrainian defenders entrenched near Kramatorsk.

Ukrainian forces in the south are reported preparing for another push from the Russians near Zaporizhzhia. No other reported changes in areas of control.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1518813528555200513

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519092986210004992

Larger detailed map from Wikipedia

Spoiler!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_R...ion_of_Ukraine

It appears that this morning's announcement of the export of the Gepard mechanized AA platform by the Germans is being blocked by the Swiss just like the Marder as they also manufacture the only ammo needed for these weapons. Do the Germans actually make any ammo for their weapons at all? Though it appears the Brazilians, who also operated the Gepards, will have enough ammo to send to the Ukrainians and have agreed to do so.

Tweet from Reuters

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519024707256922119

[FlameOn]

So Ukrainians still having their air force and AA batteries at this point in the war is owed to the US sharing detailed Russian planned strike locations and timing allowing the Ukrainians to scoot out of the way before the missiles hit.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519012278431010816

[burn_this_city]

Nightly spontaneous explosion in Belgorod

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519151477608038401

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519152410572345345

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519209425390780417

I personally prefer this one.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1519222210111877122

[GordonBlue]

someone a couple of posts up mentioned potential Ukraine use of cluster bombs and noted it hasn't been talked about it here.

I'm of the opinion that it's ok. If Ukraine is using them, it's to defeat an attacking army, and it's not even close to being the same as the Russian use of them.

[AltaGuy]

Apologies if this twitter has been shared already, but I've found it super interesting since it was shared with me - worth a follow. Very long series of tweets, but a good perspective on the conflict.

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani?t=gb...YS5g7wZhw&s=09

Example here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...728688129.html

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

I feel quite comfortable saying the Russian army, supported by the Russian population (either overtly or by their damning silence), perpetuate a culture that normalizes, embraces, celebrates, or worst of all is indifferent to, the most heinous crimes that I've ever seen, on a scale that is difficult to comprehend.

Presumably you don’t follow events in Africa.

It’s understandable that most North Americans feel more outrage at slaughters inflicted on people who look like them captured on social media than the slaughters of Africans who have minimal presence on TikTok. But it’s remarkable how much more.

Tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered every year of our lives. Mass rapes by rampaging armies have been carried out every year of our lives. Horrors carried out in war zones with impunity every year of our lives. But years on end have gone by without any of these atrocities showing as much as a blip on the collective consciousness of Canadians.

In the last 10 years alone:

Yemeni Crisis

377,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10

Tigray War

300,000 - 500,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 0/10

Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan

386,000 - 400,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10 (mostly religious groups)

Syrian Civil War

500,000 to 600,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 2/10

Boko Haram insurgency

358,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10


Ukraine War

20,000 - 30,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 10/10


Pointing out this disparity doesn’t mean excusing what’s happening in Ukraine. But it does raise troubling questions about how selective our attention is and what sorts of victims elicit our compassion and outrage which we more or less ignore.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Presumably you don’t follow events in Africa.

It’s understandable that most North Americans feel more outrage at slaughters inflicted on people who look like them captured on social media than the slaughters of Africans who have minimal presence on TikTok. But it’s remarkable how much more.

Tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered every year of our lives. Mass rapes by rampaging armies have been carried out every year of our lives. Horrors carried out in war zones with impunity every year of our lives. But years on end have gone by without any of these atrocities showing as much as a blip on the collective consciousness of Canadians.

In the last 10 years alone:

Yemeni Crisis

377,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10

Tigray War

300,000 - 500,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 0/10

Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan

386,000 - 400,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10 (mostly religious groups)

Syrian Civil War

500,000 to 600,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 2/10

Boko Haram insurgency

358,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10


Ukraine War

20,000 - 30,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 10/10


Drawing attention to this disparity doesn’t mean minimizing or excusing what’s happening in Ukraine. But it does raise troubling questions about how selective our attention is and what sorts of victims elicit our compassion and outrage which we more or less ignore.

You could take out Canada and put in World and it would be the same.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Presumably you don’t follow events in Africa.

It’s understandable that most North Americans feel more outrage at slaughters inflicted on people who look like them captured on social media than the slaughters of Africans who have minimal presence on TikTok. But it’s remarkable how much more.

Tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered every year of our lives. Mass rapes by rampaging armies have been carried out every year of our lives. Horrors carried out in war zones with impunity every year of our lives. But years on end have gone by without any of these atrocities showing as much as a blip on the collective consciousness of Canadians.

In the last 10 years alone:

Yemeni Crisis

377,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10

Tigray War

300,000 - 500,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 0/10

Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan

386,000 - 400,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10 (mostly religious groups)

Syrian Civil War

500,000 to 600,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 2/10

Boko Haram insurgency

358,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10


Ukraine War

20,000 - 30,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 10/10


Drawing attention to this disparity doesn’t mean excusing what’s happening in Ukraine. But it does raise troubling questions about how selective our attention is and what sorts of victims elicit our compassion and outrage which we more or less ignore.

Yeah, it is weird and hard to ignore that we do that. I mean, I guess we just relate to Ukrainians because they're kind of like us living lives kind of like ours. We see us in them and want to protect them.

Is it racist of us? Probably.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

someone a couple of posts up mentioned potential Ukraine use of cluster bombs and noted it hasn't been talked about it here.

I'm of the opinion that it's ok. If Ukraine is using them, it's to defeat an attacking army, and it's not even close to being the same as the Russian use of them.

Under the Convention on Cluster Munitions their use in any situation or circumstance is considered a crime. One of the things with cluster munitions is that even if you use them against military targets, they also tend to leave unexploded munitions behind even after the soldiers leave.


Russia, and the Ukraine aren't signatories to the Convention, so they're not held to it though.

[FlameOn]

Civil wars are not going to get the same level of outrage or attention as wars of aggression. Also Ukraine is perceived as right on the West's doorstep so there is self interest there to make it politically palatable to send them aid.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Presumably you don’t follow events in Africa.

It’s understandable that most North Americans feel more outrage at slaughters inflicted on people who look like them captured on social media than the slaughters of Africans who have minimal presence on TikTok. But it’s remarkable how much more.

Tens of thousands of civilians have been slaughtered every year of our lives. Mass rapes by rampaging armies have been carried out every year of our lives. Horrors carried out in war zones with impunity every year of our lives. But years on end have gone by without any of these atrocities showing as much as a blip on the collective consciousness of Canadians.

In the last 10 years alone:

Yemeni Crisis

377,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10

Tigray War

300,000 - 500,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 0/10

Ethnic cleansing in South Sudan

386,000 - 400,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10 (mostly religious groups)

Syrian Civil War

500,000 to 600,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 2/10

Boko Haram insurgency

358,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 1/10


Ukraine War

20,000 - 30,000 dead and counting

Public outrage in Canada 10/10


Pointing out this disparity doesn’t mean excusing what’s happening in Ukraine. But it does raise troubling questions about how selective our attention is and what sorts of victims elicit our compassion and outrage which we more or less ignore.

Yes, but this is disingenuous.

In an area of the world that has been at peace for 77 years, a full on invasion of a nation-state by a nation-state is shocking for everyone and anyone. Your 2nd paragraph you talk about how these atrocities happen literally ALL THE TIME in Africa. It's hard to be outraged 24/7 for 45 years straight when it is such a regular occurrence.

Also, the largest conflict and heaviest fighting in human history arguably* happened in Eastern Europe so that backdrop looms large during this new conflict and the worry of how much more it could escalate.

*the Pacific theater was also a nightmare.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

You could take out Canada and put in World and it would be the same.

More like NATO and its close allies. Most of the rest of the world isn't getting directly involved (or even taking sides) in the war in Ukraine because from their perspective, it isn't any different than other wars.

There are clear reasons why the West is getting involved (the conflict is dangerously close to NATO's borders, the US has a keen interest in weakening Russia through a proxy war, etc.), but it's not just because of the brutality that's being inflicted on the Ukrainian population. And those reasons for involvement don't extend to most of the rest of the world, which is why the support from most non-NATO countries has been limited to humanitarian aid.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, it is weird and hard to ignore that we do that. I mean, I guess we just relate to Ukrainians because they're kind of like us living lives kind of like ours. We see us in them and want to protect them.

Is it racist of us? Probably.

I'd like to think that's not the case. And that the amount of attention is different because it is a world superpower attacking a small neighbor, with the stated objective of wiping the Ukrainian "problem" away. I think it triggers in us a lot of the same feelings our societies had during/post WW2. Except we are seeing it all in real time.

But at the same time, some of the hardest things for me to mentally process in this is kids that are my kids age, holding a toy my kid has, having just lost their father/mother/grandparents.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Pointing out this disparity doesn’t mean excusing what’s happening in Ukraine. But it does raise troubling questions about how selective our attention is and what sorts of victims elicit our compassion and outrage which we more or less ignore.

On top of the ethnic / racial similarities of most Canadians, along with the heavy presence of social media, there is also the fact that this war is taking place in the middle of the second most "important" continent - i say that tongue in cheek, but you get the idea.

Also, this isn't a civil war or an insurgency of rebels, but an invasion by a world power. People know who Putin is, they know about the fall of the USSR. This is history they, atleast somewhat, understand. It's an easy choice to pick a side.

How do people pick a side in Tigray conflict? do average people know what that is? what countries are involved? where is eritrea? who is running the country? who is the "good guy" here? will they just turn out to be another bad guy? Isnt this all the fault of Europe anyway? can't we just re-design the borders? can't they just have democracy?

Not discounting the utter travesty of those events, but we can't go around blaming the collective conscience of a nation or its people on the fact that they pick and choose what conflicts to be outraged at. There is only so much ugly news people can take before they are desensitized to it.

[CroFlames]

The extent of my knowledge is that Kylington is half Eritrean.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, but this is disingenuous.

In an area of the world that has been at peace for 77 years, a full on invasion of a nation-state by a nation-state is shocking for everyone and anyone. Your 2nd paragraph you talk about how these atrocities happen literally ALL THE TIME in Africa. It's hard to be outraged 24/7 for 45 years straight when it is such a regular occurrence.

Also, the largest conflict and heaviest fighting in human history arguably* happened in Eastern Europe so that backdrop looms large during this new conflict and the worry of how much more it could escalate.

*the Pacific theater was also a nightmare.

I think you're overstating the stability of non-NATO Europe. There had been a Russian-backed civil war in Ukraine for 8 years prior to this war and they've had 2 revolutions in the last 20 years. And of course there were the Yugoslav wars in Europe in the 90s and revolutions in several Warsaw Pact states in the '80s and '90s.

Obviously war between nation states is a bit different, but this isn't like France attacking Germany or something. There's a reason that Ukraine has spent the last 8 years preparing for this and the West was pouring arms into the country and training troops even under Harper and Obama.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Apologies if this twitter has been shared already, but I've found it super interesting since it was shared with me - worth a follow. Very long series of tweets, but a good perspective on the conflict.



https://twitter.com/kamilkazani?t=gb...YS5g7wZhw&s=09



Example here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...728688129.html

Out of thanks but this is very enlightening.