PROOF that Evolution is a Myth

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

and that certainly isn't out the realm of possibility.... i mean its an all powerful being we're talking about.... i'm sure he could pull that off.

That's a pretty sneaky trick for an all powerful being. He gives us all this evidence that things are a certain way and then condemns us to spend eternity in hell if we fall for it.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

and that certainly isn't out the realm of possibility.... i mean its an all powerful being we're talking about.... i'm sure he could pull that off.
if god has always guided all evolution, then any evolution that occurs would look like nothing un-natural or out of the ordinary.

But if you can't tell the difference between a natural cause and God's intervention (ie they both appear 100% exactly the same), then there is no point in discussing it at all. Either a person believes it 100% on faith with no foundation in reason, or they don't, and there's no argument to be made on either side to convince the other. The discussion becomes moot at that point.

That's not what places like the Discovery Institute promote though, they want to convince people through (wildly incorrect) evidence that evolution is wrong and young earth creationism is correct.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Until you try to shoehorn Adam and Eve, The big Arc Yacht story c/w dinosaurs and the 6000 year old earth problem into evolution.
I know I know...God just made the fossils appear to be millions of years old.

wasn't meaning to try to defend christianity specifically but the whole concept of religion/god in general. it is possible for a diety to exist but no organized religion (heck, no person whatsoever) to have all the right answers

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by photon

But if you can't tell the difference between a natural cause and God's intervention (ie they both appear 100% exactly the same), then there is no point in discussing it at all. Either a person believes it 100% on faith with no foundation in reason, or they don't, and there's no argument to be made on either side to convince the other. The discussion becomes moot at that point.

hit the nail right on the head. that's pretty much the only point i came in here to make, so i'll bid you all good day.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

wasn't meaning to try to defend christianity specifically but the whole concept of religion/god in general. it is possible for a diety to exist but no organized religion (heck, no person whatsoever) to have all the right answers

I've tried that, but it doesn't work. Apparently if you try to defend the idea of religion and spirituality, it means you are a creationist, and you believe that Bible stories are true historical fact. There is no other possibility.

[Cheese]

oops double

[Cheese]

Some questions for our religious friends, with no malcontent involved.
Can you answer these questions?

Define God

Is he omnimax? Is he the Christian God? Are all others delusional about their gods?

Omnimax Omnimax = All Good, All knowing, All powerfull

Define this. Is it reality? Does watering down the definition really help support a god?

Objective Standard of Morality

Does one exist? Does God dictate it or is he obliged to stick to it? If God is good and created everything, how could Evil exist?

Free Will

Define it. Does it exist? How could it exist with predetermination. If it is used as an excuse for Evil can it be demonstrated that free will is Good?

The Bible

Do you adhere to it? Was it the word of man (possibly inspired by God) or is it the actual word of God?

The Flood

Are you serious??? Explain if so.

Evolution

What do you think it is (give us your definition)? Does it disprove God if true? If you give the old Macro vs Micro you need to state where you think the line is.

and finally...

Atheism

What do you think this means?

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I've tried that, but it doesn't work. Apparently if you try to defend the idea of religion and spirituality, it means you are a creationist, and you believe that Bible stories are true historical fact. There is no other possibility.

The spirituality that came up in this thread is predominately Christian spirituality where there is more of a defined set of "guidelines" to structure your belief with. Obviously if you live by your spiritual guidelines then this thread about evolution/creationism doesn't really apply to you.

[calgaryrocks]

i just want to say before i give my answers to these that it is merely my opinion and just like everything else, doesnt represent every christian out there. it is certainly up to debate and questioning, i may or may not answer, but i do enjoy questions that challenge my faith as they help me to grow in my faith, enjoy and accept that there are my answers and you may have yours.

Define God

he is god, god is everywhere, god has no beginning or no end...so complex that people cant understand it.
Omnimax Omnimax = All Good, All knowing, All powerfull

all good...god has reasons for doing everything, he is good to satans bad, but good and bad are general terms and usually a relative term
all knowing. kind of like he knows what were thinking..thus thinking about a girl naked in your mind is sinful(lets not start arguing about that)
all powerful...basically powerful, he created the heavens and the earth, he flooded the earth and molded it and created life
Objective Standard of Morality

the way i see it is that morality is principled. its what your heart is in it for, if you are giving your all for god, trying to be like jesus and have a relationship with god, and loving others as yourself, its good. alot of stuff can be harmful to your spiritual growth and habits like excessive alchohol take your focus off of god and showing gods love to others, whereas i can go to a bar, in my opinion, and have a chat with a buddy about christ or something and that is fine, because i cant tell others about the love of christ from inside a church. i have to go out there and be in the world but still have my roots in god.
Free Will

well basically i believe in free will, some christians do some dont. he gave adam and eve a choice in the garden, he wants us to choose him and love him out of your own will. and usually not following what he wants us to do or making bad decisions leads to sin or suffering or other consequences
The Bible

yes. it was written by men inspired by god(although arguably some of the books that moses wrote were written by god, like the 10 commandments). it is our written history, men who wrote the gospels wrote what they saw and experienced with jesus but included what god wanted them to...so they wrote it inspired by god.
The Flood

well a year ago i wouldve strayed away from this question because i wasnt sure, but im more confident in it now as questions get answered, thats part of growing in your faith, sometimes you need a little reasoning behind things. as you can expect such an event cant be summed up in a few words if you want to understand it better but ill try. first off volcanoes spray alot of steam when they erupt(i think 70%) so there must be water underground. alot of water could have come up when there was a "breaking up of hte fountains". also in a tectonic plate model the ocean floor may have lifted up up to 6500 ft due to an increase in temperature and spilled alot of water onto the land. also there was extraordinary rainfall for 40 days, but that can only be part of it. the waters would have had to go somewhere so god lifted up mountains and made large valleys and deep ocean beds to protect the earth from ever being flooded again. remember that 70% of the earth is covered by water today and if all the land was leveled, water would cover the earths surface at a depth of 2.7 km...wow yeah so thats just part of it, here are some links because im not going to explain it all, and im sure there will be questions.
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html
the science of the ark http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html


Evolution

evolution: not sure on this one, maybe there is an evolution in some animals as they adapt but probably mostly just societal evolution as we as a people change in what we strive for, what we do and how we percieve science and religion. i dont believe in the darwin evolution stuff that we came from monkeys. sorry
Atheism

someone who doesnt believe in a god, as theism is believing in god. atheism is a belief and could be argued as a belief in no god, but there is no "bible" of truth for atheism to prove anything, no saviour, no heaven or hell and everything is up to chance.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

all good...god has reasons for doing everything, he is good to satans bad...

all knowing.

Why doesn't he use this knowledge to defeat satan?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why doesn't he use this knowledge to defeat satan?

That would defeat the purpose of free will, and all-loving.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

That would defeat the purpose of free will, and all-loving.

I don't see how it defeats the purpose of free will, but I'm sure there is an explanation. What is it?

And god is all-loving so he lets some agent of evil tempt us into eternal damnation? What kind of love is that?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't see how it defeats the purpose of free will, but I'm sure there is an explanation. What is it?

If He changes the outcome, you don't have free will.

And god is all-loving so he lets some agent of evil tempt us into eternal damnation? What kind of love is that?

You want free will, don't you? He gives you a choice, you can choose your eternity. It's the kind of love every parent gives their child when they send them out into the world.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FireFly

If He changes the outcome, you don't have free will.

Huh? Doesn't he "change the outcome" all the time? What is the point of going to church or praying or going through all the rituals or even reading the book?

Originally Posted by FireFly

You want free will, don't you? He gives you a choice, you can choose your eternity. It's the kind of love every parent gives their child when they send them out into the world.

That doesn't sound like love to me. What you are proposing is something akin to a parent putting a chocolate cake in front of a hungry five-year-old, asking him not to take a bite and then beating him to death when he does. If that's love, it's definitely "tough love".

[photon]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

The Flood

well a year ago i wouldve strayed away from this question because i wasnt sure, but im more confident in it now as questions get answered, thats part of growing in your faith, sometimes you need a little reasoning behind things.

Isn't that against the very definition of faith though? If you believe something out of reason, then it's not faith.

as you can expect such an event cant be summed up in a few words if you want to understand it better but ill try.

There's a lot of "may" and "could have" in your description, and very little actual science. Unfortunately there is almost no evidence of a global flood, and a great deal of evidence against it.

Evolution

evolution: not sure on this one, maybe there is an evolution in some animals as they adapt but probably mostly just societal evolution as we as a people change in what we strive for, what we do and how we percieve science and religion. i dont believe in the darwin evolution stuff that we came from monkeys. sorry

Well that's good because Darwin didn't say we come from monkeys. If you are going to decide something is true or false, shouldn't you at the very least understand what it is that you are deciding against?

Evolution says all life has a common ancestor. And the amount of scientific evidence to support it is overwhelming. Before you dismiss it I would suggest you make a real and concerted effort to understand what it is you say didn't happen; you might find you can't and remain intellectually honest.

Atheism

someone who doesnt believe in a god, as theism is believing in god. atheism is a belief and could be argued as a belief in no god, but there is no "bible" of truth for atheism to prove anything, no saviour, no heaven or hell and everything is up to chance.

Most atheists don't say "I want to believe there's no God so I won't." They take the position that there is no evidence that there is a God and until shown some, the default position of non-belief must be taken. Do you believe in Zeus? Why not? There's no evidence of Zeus, and it would take a pretty significant event or amount of evidence to prove Zeus to you right? An atheist feels the exact same way about God as you do about Zeus.

And saying an atheist leaves everything to chance is ridiculous. What are they leaving to chance? That they're going to get to work in the morning? That they're going to pay their taxes? That they're going to spend time with their family? They use the same brain, make the same kinds of decisions, give the same effort in their lives as a theist does.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

the science of the ark http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html

Do you honestly believe deep down inside that eight human beings lived on a wooden boat and fed, cleaned up after and cared for real live dinosaurs for more than a year?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Do you honestly believe deep down inside that eight human beings lived on a wooden boat and fed, cleaned up after and cared for real live dinosaurs for more than a year?

Yes, but it goes on to explain that the animals went into hibernation. Or something. Supernatural hibernation. Which is great, because they follow that up with this sentence: "There is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noah's ark is a myth or fable." Sorry, I think any story that relies on supernatural hibernation is more likely than not to be a myth. The word 'supernatural' pretty much implies that it goes against scientific evidence.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yes, but it goes on to explain that the animals went into hibernation. Or something. Supernatural hibernation. Which is great, because they follow that up with this sentence: "There is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noah's ark is a myth or fable." Sorry, I think any story that relies on supernatural hibernation is more likely than not to be a myth. The word 'supernatural' pretty much implies that it goes against scientific evidence.

If God was capable of putting them into supernatural hibernation...why didn't God just send them all into a pocket dimension...or the future!!! I don't like Christian answers that depend on logically flawed and unreasonable assumptions. It makes the whole lot look bad. The Flood story is a huge blind spot (amongst many) for people who want to interpret the Bible literally.

If it were up to me, I'd supernaturally turn everything into a computer. Then I'd backup the essential parts of planet earth I wanted to keep and then hit "Format C:\" (C: for Creation).

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Do you honestly believe deep down inside that eight human beings lived on a wooden boat and fed, cleaned up after and cared for real live dinosaurs for more than a year?

And further to that...after the waters receded started to procreate and repopulate the world after every living thing was murdered? 6000 years ago?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

If He changes the outcome, you don't have free will.



You want free will, don't you? He gives you a choice, you can choose your eternity. It's the kind of love every parent gives their child when they send them out into the world.

Ah Fly...you should get into politics the way you spin things...seriously!

If God is...

a) omniscient - he knows of all evil

b) omnibenevolent - he desires the abscence of evil

c) omnipotent - he has the power to eliminate evil

then why is there evil?

Or better yet....do you believe that your God is not an Omnimax God? You do understand the actual meaning of the words above?

What say you about this......(Not my words and not necessarily all of my thoughts)...but certainly thought provoking.

1. All major religions, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, assert god is creator of all, omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent, (all-powerful), omnibenevolent (all-good).
2. These claims are derived from sacred books, all claimed to be revelations about god by god to us.
3. The four mentioned assertions about god above are explicit in sacred books, bible ,quran, vedas, et al.

5. If god is to create a universe, he knows what his proposed universe will have in it given his initial starting conditions. This is because god is all knowing and explicitly is said to have foreknowledge of all events, even future events.

6. Thus if god contemplates creating a universe he will see that in 14 billion years there will be a man named John Smith who will commit rape on June 23, 2008.

7. God must then decide if he will allow that act to occur or not. If so, it will occur with his express knowledge and approval. If not he will change initial starting conditions so that act will not occur. That act consists of conglomerations of atoms in space and time, their constituent particles, in time and space to the smallest quark in Planck space and time.

8. All acts of all sentient beings are thus foreseen, and either allowed with god's full approval or not allowed. All underlying physical events to the smallest details are planned by god to the smallest detail.

9. Thus the Universe is planned to the smallest detail by God and God alone, personally, purposefully and knowingly.

10. Thus we have no free will and can have no free will in the strongest possible sense, no free will is possible even in principle. Omnigenesis, god's creation of all events to the smallest quark means only god decides what happens and how it happens.

11. If god is omnipotent, he is not limited by mundane physical laws of this universe.
As noted by Boethius and Augustine. Thus God is not limited by time, in fact, he must then have created time.

12. But that means he must have created all at once. For god there is no time, no past, present future, only a now. So all he creates must be created in now, all at once, to the smallest detail.
All our acts, out atoms and quarks, all of us in all of space and time to the smallest detail.

13. Again, omnigenesis, creation of all in total detail, free will is impossible for us.

14. Thus free will is impossible if god creates all, and is either omniscient or omnipotent.
in both cases omnigenesis holds.

15. God is said to be all good, perfectly good.

16. But if moral evil exists and free will does not all moral evil is god's doing, not ours.

17. But since god is defined as all good and god is if creator of all and omnipotent or omniscient responsible for all moral evil, god is morally evil. Contradiction between revealed claims. God cannot exist.

18. Further more, this makes all of god's other claimed attributes questionable. Why create one man saved and good, another damned and evil? Why then, heaven and hell or salvation and damnation? Claims god loves us, is concerned for us and is merciful or just, is incomprehensible.
There is no logic to this. Claims god is good and omniscient and omnipotence and creator ship of god combines to destroy all possible free will, why does an all good god not create us all good, and all saved? All logic, all reason, all rationality is destroyed with such a God and the world is incomprehensible.

With such a god we can only achieve total metaphysical nihilism. All this proves is that god is a supremely bad idea and cannot be true. This means the religions of 4.3 billion people are false.

The idea that revelation shows god is omni-everything and creator of all is obviously false,
provably false and cannot be saved without abandoning claims of revelation.