[PGT] Flames beat Vancouver, 6-3!

[TheIronMaiden]

I feel pretty lucky to have 2 40 goal scorers...

[FireGilbert]

Hilarious the Flames signed Markstrom away from Vancouver for nothing and then Calgary didn't even need to play him in a do or die game for the Nucks because the Flames had already clinched the division. Then the Flames win without Markstrom to effectively kill Vancouver's hopes. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.

Also pretty cool Johnny now 2nd place all time most points in a season for a Flame.

[Flamesfan05]

Tkachuk, Andersson, Markstrom and Tanev.

All except maybe Markstrom would have made the Canucks a better team

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Was Elliotte doing some kind of live action trolling?

He referred to the statistics and basically said it was Bergeron’s

Bergeron : 70 gp 20 G 36 A 56 P +18
Lindholm: 79 gp 40 G 40 A 80 P +58

What on earth metrics could possible refute that discrepancy?

It being his last year?

Surely trolling, or whatever the real life equivalent is


Edit: Snuffy basically said the same while I was typing this

I think he's referring to the underlying numbers ... Bergeron in literally on island when it comes to keeping the other team at bay when he's on the ice.

1.52 xGA60 ... next closest guy is 1.79
66% CF% ... next closest guy is 62%
40.4 CA60 ... next closest guy is 42.2

He's gapping the entire league.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Definitely not a reassuring interview! But whatever, he’s given this team everything he has needed to. Doesn’t owe the team or the city anything if he does move on.

Sure friggin hope he can sign back on though

Disagree. I think he displayed a great deal of enthusiasm for Calgary - and reiterated that his parents AND his wife love it there.

I think Johnny re-signs with the Flames. For a truckload of cash to be sure....well he might see what others offer, but the Flames 8th year helps massively. Yes, they'll have to eat some of that. He bet on himself this year and he won big.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Disagree. I think he displayed a great deal of enthusiasm for Calgary - and reiterated that his parents AND his wife love it there.

I think Johnny re-signs with the Flames. For a truckload of cash to be sure....well he might see what others offer, but the Flames 8th year helps massively. Yes, they'll have to eat some of that. He bet on himself this year and he won big.

The 8 year ability ends on UFA day. I was told the courting period prior to UFA doesn’t exist any more. So unless there is tampering or Treliving allows Gaudreau to talk to teams, he won’t see what others offer until after the Flames are unable to offer 8 years.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think he's referring to the underlying numbers ... Bergeron in literally on island when it comes to keeping the other team at bay when he's on the ice.

1.52 xGA60 ... next closest guy is 1.79
66% CF% ... next closest guy is 62%
40.4 CA60 ... next closest guy is 42.2

He's gapping the entire league.

And I would counter that with the following...

On ice even strength goals for and against:

Lindholm: 104 - 47, differential +57
Bergeron.: 50 - 33, differential +17

The reason we use chances instead of actual goals is sample size - chances should eliminate luck. But over the course of an entire season, the sample size for actual production is large enough, and chances are essentially irrelevant. What matters is outscoring the opposition.

Over the course of the season, the Flames outscored the opposition 104 - 47 with Lindholm on the ice. That's a historical season, and a total mic drop.

And Bergeron is so far behind that I don't care what any defensive analytics say.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Hilarious the Flames signed Markstrom away from Vancouver for nothing and then Calgary didn't even need to play him in a do or die game for the Nucks because the Flames had already clinched the division. Then the Flames win without Markstrom to effectively kill Vancouver's hopes. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.

Also pretty cool Johnny now 2nd place all time most points in a season for a Flame.

So I have a life long die hard Canucks friend. Back in the early 90's I had to hear over and over what a God Pavel Bure was. Then it was hearing about the hockey God Naslund in early 2000's. Then it was the amazing twins 2010ish.

Henrik 112
Bure 110
Bure 107
Mogilny 107
Naslund 104
Daniel 104

Johnny is passing all their best seasons, I was so hoping Gaudreau was going to explode for 4 points to surpass any Canucks season and he would have to watch it last night.

Those guys were simply dominant in those seasons, Johnny Gaudreau is having an amazing historical season here.

My Canucks buddy hates all the Johnny news and stats I've been feeding him all season.

Payback is a bitch and I'm totally enjoying it to the fullest.

Thank-you Johnny.

[Gaudfather]

Dube’s second goal last night was a thing of beauty - post- crossbar - other post - and in!

https://twitter.com/nhlflames/status...eW9CfFrPcBvKfA

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The 8 year ability ends on UFA day. I was told the courting period prior to UFA doesn’t exist any more. So unless there is tampering or Treliving allows Gaudreau to talk to teams, he won’t see what others offer until after the Flames are unable to offer 8 years.

Landeskog signed his eight-year extension the day before Free Agency began last year. I expect something similar to occur in Calgary.

My sense based on everything that has been said by both sides is not that Gaudreau is waiting to test the market. It's that both sides want a deal done, but are determined not to do it in-season. Gaudreau said something last night similar to this: they were working on a contract last summer, but couldn't get it done, and will now wait until this season is finished.

[Enoch Root]

Regarding Millen - I think he is one of the better ones, generally. Knowledgeable, even keeled, and unbiased. Usually.

One thing that I consider to be an important quality in a commentator is the ability to let the game dictate the story. Too many of the weaker commentators bring a pre-set narrative into the game, and then spend the entire game trying to fit the game into that narrative. The good ones run with the story that is unfolding in front of them.

Another key factor is knowing your audience. If you are doing regional coverage for one team (and the other team has their own coverage), go ahead and tailor the narrative to the locals and be a bit of a homer. However, on a national telecast, and in this case a two-Canadian-team telecast, your narrative has to be more balanced.

Last night, Millen failed on both accounts. Yes, the story going in was about whether the Canucks could keep their playoff dreams alive. However, the game that unfolded was a pre-playoff clinic from the Flames. They were dominant, they were physical, and they looked like a team that is ready for the playoffs.

But Millen couldn't shake the narrative that he wanted to tell. And he had no interest in talking about the Flames. I had no problem with his original narrative, but when the Flames were dominating, and when they blew it open in the 3rd, he needed to run with that. Instead he sulked.

So IMO, yeah, he deserved the criticism last night.

[Enoch Root]

One would think, after listening to HNIC last night, that the Canucks put together a rebound season for the ages. A comeback rally so mighty and impressive that they would be singing songs about it for generations to come!

So what do the numbers look like? Boudreau was hired on Dec 5th, since then:

LAK: 58G, 74P
CGY: 55G, 73P
VAN: 54G, 69P
EDM: 56G, 66P
VGS: 55G, 63P

They lost ground to the Flames and Kings, and gained 3 points on the Oilers. Truly epic.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And I would counter that with the following...

On ice even strength goals for and against:

Lindholm: 104 - 47, differential +57
Bergeron.: 50 - 33, differential +17

The reason we use chances instead of actual goals is sample size - chances should eliminate luck. But over the course of an entire season, the sample size for actual production is large enough, and chances are essentially irrelevant. What matters is outscoring the opposition.

Over the course of the season, the Flames outscored the opposition 104 - 47 with Lindholm on the ice. That's a historical season, and a total mic drop.

And Bergeron is so far behind that I don't care what any defensive analytics say.

The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line is having one of the greatest offensive seasons in decades. The Selke is a defensive award. It doesn't matter how great the goal differential or plus-minus is. Scoring more goals doesn't make you better at defense.


It's a historic season, but not a historic defensive season. It's merely a very good defensive season, combined with a historic offensive season. Lindholm is miles ahead of Bergeron on the back of things that shouldn't count towards the Selke trophy.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

The Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk line is having one of the greatest offensive seasons in decades. The Selke is a defensive award. It doesn't matter how great the goal differential or plus-minus is. Scoring more goals doesn't make you better at defense.


It's a historic season, but not a historic defensive season. It's merely a very good defensive season, combined with a historic offensive season. Lindholm is miles ahead of Bergeron on the back of things that shouldn't count towards the Selke trophy.

Actually, scoring goals is a great way to play defense. And they aren't just playing great offensive hockey, they are playing dominant two-way hockey.

I get your point, and yes, Bergeron has been on the ice for fewer goals against. But the difference isn't that great. And when you consider the goals for as well, the difference in Lindholm's favour is huge.

If all you want to look at is goals against...

Bergeron: 33 EVG against
T. Lewis: 32 EVG against

And there are other players that have been on the ice for even fewer goals against.

I mean, if Bergeron had given up substantially fewer than Lindholm (like 33 vs 66 for example), I could see the argument for ignoring the other side of the equation. But he didn't.

The numbers are as blatant as any numbers could be:

104-47 vs
50-33

One player is playing low event hockey (the same thing Lewis is doing), and the other is completely destroying the competition.

[Gaudfather]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

One would think, after listening to HNIC last night, that the Canucks put together a rebound season for the ages. A comeback rally so mighty and impressive that they would be singing songs about it for generations to come!

So what do the numbers look like? Boudreau was hired on Dec 5th, since then:

LAK: 58G, 74P
CGY: 55G, 73P
VAN: 54G, 69P
EDM: 56G, 66P
VGS: 55G, 63P

They lost ground to the Flames and Kings, and gained 3 points on the Oilers. Truly epic.

Their minds are made up - don't confuse them with the facts!

[Duffalufagus]

In Vegas. Had a 5 way parlay going and thought I’d take the stupid Nucks as a hedge. Went 4/5 and lost $1000 because this team doesn’t #### around.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Actually, scoring goals is a great way to play defense. And they aren't just playing great offensive hockey, they are playing dominant two-way hockey.

I get your point, and yes, Bergeron has been on the ice for fewer goals against. But the difference isn't that great. And when you consider the goals for as well, the difference in Lindholm's favour is huge.

If all you want to look at is goals against...

Bergeron: 33 EVG against
T. Lewis: 32 EVG against

And there are other players that have been on the ice for even fewer goals against.

I mean, if Bergeron had given up substantially fewer than Lindholm (like 33 vs 66 for example), I could see the argument for ignoring the other side of the equation. But he didn't.

The numbers are as blatant as any numbers could be:

104-47 vs
50-33

One player is playing low event hockey (the same thing Lewis is doing), and the other is completely destroying the competition.

Ignoring the other side of the equation is the definition of the award. It doesn't matter if it was 204-47 - Lindholm still allows goals against at a higher rate.


Giving out awards based on things that are not in the award's criteria is dumb. The Selke is about defense. Bergeron > Lindholm defensively. Offense isn't a tie-breaker, it just doesn't matter.



Is Florida the best defensive team this season?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Ignoring the other side of the equation is the definition of the award. It doesn't matter if it was 204-47 - Lindholm still allows goals against at a higher rate.


Giving out awards based on things that are not in the award's criteria is dumb. The Selke is about defense. Bergeron > Lindholm defensively. Offense isn't a tie-breaker, it just doesn't matter.



Is Florida the best defensive team this season?

Again, I get your point, but I think you are being too rigid and restrictive in your application.

Is the best defensive player the one who gives up the fewest goals against? (Bergeron was 10th among Cs that played at least 70 games, by the way)

Is low event hockey the best defense?

Or is the best defensive player the one that can shut down the other team AND generate offense?

Which is better: giving up 20 goals and scoring 10? Or giving up 30 and scoring 60?

If your focus on defense is so rigid that you aren't generating offense, are you being better defensively?

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Mass19

I don't think it should even be close.
lindholm should have the selke wrapped up.
If anything it should be between lindholm and barkov.

Jeff mareks the worst for it, talks about how it's the Bergeron award and then goes off about how you have to lose the award a few times before you can win it.

And Elliot saying Bergeron's numbers are outstanding, 56 points and +18 against Lindholm's numbers aren't outstanding. Bergeron is a great hockey player but he hasn't been the best this year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Ignoring the other side of the equation is the definition of the award. It doesn't matter if it was 204-47 - Lindholm still allows goals against at a higher rate.


Giving out awards based on things that are not in the award's criteria is dumb. The Selke is about defense. Bergeron > Lindholm defensively. Offense isn't a tie-breaker, it just doesn't matter.



Is Florida the best defensive team this season?

Your point here is that differential isn't proof of good defense, and I agree. And no, Florida isn't the best defensive team, simply because they have the best differential.

But Lindholm's case isn't just about offense. He has been stellar defensively as well. That line is both shutting down the opposition AND hammering them with their own offense.

Differential isn't everything, but it also shouldn't be ignored completely. Because it definitely DOES matter. And playing in the offensive zone is the best defense there is.