Russia invades Ukraine

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

There will be generations of prejudice against all Russians after this.

By many, but not all. Which is still depressing. Heck, we see the prejudice against Russian citizens already in society, online and in this forum.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by activeStick

By many, but not all. Which is still depressing. Heck, we see the prejudice against Russian citizens already in society, online and in this forum.

Trouble is although there some incredibly brave Russians standing up and being counted the vast majority of Russians will only oppose the war because of Russia loses, if Russia was winning and their boys not dying in droves they would be fine with raping and destroying Ukraine, they would be happy to take over the Baltic and Moldovia as well, as a society they are little different from Germany in the 1930's, they are happy to shat on other countries and races to improve their lot in the world, its hard to find a redeeming aspect to Russia right now

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Trouble is although there some incredibly brave Russians standing up and being counted the vast majority of Russians will only oppose the war because of Russia loses, if Russia was winning and their boys not dying in droves they would be fine with raping and destroying Ukraine, they would be happy to take over the Baltic and Moldovia as well, as a society they are little different from Germany in the 1930's, they are happy to shat on other countries and races to improve their lot in the world, its hard to find a redeeming aspect to Russia right now

That's a pretty sweeping assessment of 140 million people...

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

That's a pretty sweeping assessment of 140 million people...

yep, but its what the last 25 years have born out, Putin isnt the only Russian that wants the old empire back, there may be less desire in the young but there is no real opposition to invading Ukraine, I have no doubt there will be to losing but that's not exactly a moral high ground

[FlameOn]

MOD updates for the day. Following Russian missile attack against civilians in Kramatorsk and a meeting of EU leadership, there will be new arms to Ukraine to fight off the anticipated Russian offensive including potentially more heavy weapons support. In a first offer of non-Soviet era vehicles so far, the UK will be sending it's Mastiff armored vehicles used in Afghanistan/Iraq along with more infantry weapons previously provided.

MOD assesses that Russians have fully withdrawn in north Ukraine towards the east where forces there continued shelling of Ukrainian positions in Kharkiv and Izyum but gained no ground.

Russia are reportedly committing 40 BTGs for the offensive to take Kramatorsk, which is a third of the forces originally committed to take Ukraine pre-invasion and assigned a single general now to the operation so this may be far more organized with a larger concentration of troops compared to their initial effort.

In the south the Ukrainian counter-offensive is pushing closer to Kherson putting the Russians on the defensive there.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1512369024084152323

https://twitter.com/user/status/1512284278813597702

https://twitter.com/user/status/1512460112186818563

Larger map from Wikipedia

Spoiler!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_R...ion_of_Ukraine

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/brit...es-to-ukraine/

[burn_this_city]

Seems like the Russian behavior at Chernobyl was dumber than we imagined.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/08/w...chernobyl.html

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

yep, but its what the last 25 years have born out, Putin isnt the only Russian that wants the old empire back, there may be less desire in the young but there is no real opposition to invading Ukraine, I have no doubt there will be to losing but that's not exactly a moral high ground

How can you even assess that?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

How can you even assess that?

Putin's popularity has massively increased every time he has sent in the army to #### kick some former soviet state, his popularity went through the roof in 2014 when he took Crimea.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Putin's popularity has massively increased every time he has sent in the army to #### kick some former soviet state, his popularity went through the roof in 2014 when he took Crimea.

Tribalism is a timeless consequence of war. It's one of the tragedies of war that those sentiments becomes stronger and empathy for the other is reduced. That's hardly just a thing in Russia.

You're also putting a lot of faith in those polls, to condemn everyone in Russia based on their results. I would say there's a fair chance reality is a bit more complex.

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1512400794729029633

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

It was launched at a railyard with women and children and it killed dozens.

It doesn't matter what was written on it.

Your post is correct in general, except for that I was specifically replying to the post regarding what was written on the rocket.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Putin's popularity has massively increased every time he has sent in the army to #### kick some former soviet state, his popularity went through the roof in 2014 when he took Crimea.

There are huge differences between previous wars by Putin and this one, from an average Russian perspective. For the sake of an argument let's assume average Russian believes all the propaganda and has no moral side in him. Differences are:

1. Previous wars didn't result in sanctions that affects their daily lives. Before Crimea there were no sanctions at all, Crimea sanctions were very weak compared to now.

2. Those wars were very short.

3. Those wars didn't bring a sense of uncertainty and a sense of some major economic downturn.

4. Losses of Russia army were far far less.

5. Those wars were victorious.


Now on top of it we still have people, who

1. Can read English and are aware of atrocities, at least to some extent

2. Were against the war when it started even though it was supposed to end in a swift and decisive Russian victory

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

There are huge differences between previous wars by Putin and this one, from an average Russian perspective. For the sake of an argument let's assume average Russian believes all the propaganda and has no moral side in him. Differences are:

1. Previous wars didn't result in sanctions that affects their daily lives. Before Crimea there were no sanctions at all, Crimea sanctions were very weak compared to now.

2. Those wars were very short.

3. Those wars didn't bring a sense of uncertainty and a sense of some major economic downturn.

4. Losses of Russia army were far far less.

5. Those wars were victorious.


Now on top of it we still have people, who

1. Can read English and are aware of atrocities, at least to some extent

2. Were against the war when it started even though it was supposed to end in a swift and decisive Russian victory

All of this I agree with but that was kind of my point, for most Russians it seems like they dont actually care that their country is destroying and capturing other countries, killing tens of thousands of Chechens Georgians Syrians and now Ukrainians, as long as it doesnt affect them, my analogy to the Germans in the 1930's was specific, the Germans loved taking Austria, the Sudetenland, etc etc Hitler made them feel great again, they didnt start to have doubts until allied bombers were blowing their homes up, it had nothing to do with right or wrong it was just self interest

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

All of this I agree with but that was kind of my point, for most Russians it seems like they dont actually care that their country is destroying and capturing other countries, killing tens of thousands of Chechens Georgians Syrians and now Ukrainians, as long as it doesnt affect them, my analogy to the Germans in the 1930's was specific, the Germans loved taking Austria, the Sudetenland, etc etc Hitler made them feel great again, they didnt start to have doubts until allied bombers were blowing their homes up, it had nothing to do with right or wrong it was just self interest

This is definitely true about large part of Russian population. As long, as Russia is winning and a war doesn't affect them directly, most people are happy with that. There's still one more variable to it though, like "familiarity" or ability to relate to the invaded country.

Bombing Ukraine was a bit different to begin with, as many Russians have been to Ukraine and have relatives or friend or at least coworkers from there. The very idea of bombing Kyiv was terrifying to many Russians as it is too close and too familiar place. That's why so many Russians were shocked from the very beginning even when a quick win was expected. Crimea was different because it was bloodless and it's mostly a Russian region.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by activeStick

By many, but not all. Which is still depressing. Heck, we see the prejudice against Russian citizens already in society, online and in this forum.

Can't speak to the real world, but on this forum it seems all the hate is against the Russian leadership, oligarchs, and military.
rightfully so. #### them and let them die.

I have yet to see in real life (in my world) anyone hating Russia or the average citizen.

There are always going to be people who hate, but from the news I've seen, they are few in number.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

All of this I agree with but that was kind of my point, for most Russians it seems like they dont actually care that their country is destroying and capturing other countries, killing tens of thousands of Chechens Georgians Syrians and now Ukrainians, as long as it doesnt affect them, my analogy to the Germans in the 1930's was specific, the Germans loved taking Austria, the Sudetenland, etc etc Hitler made them feel great again, they didnt start to have doubts until allied bombers were blowing their homes up, it had nothing to do with right or wrong it was just self interest

It's worth remembering that there were anti-war and anti-nazi movements in pre-war Germany too.

As for Russians, I would argue that their "cardinal sin" isn't so much a tendency towards authoritarianism or a love for imperialism, it's apathy and cynicism.

Feeding this cynicism has also been one of Putin's main strategies in holding on to power. For two decades he's been supporting all sorts of crooks and crazies in Russian politics and generally encouraged an idea that there are no good alternatives.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

All of this I agree with but that was kind of my point, for most Russians it seems like they dont actually care that their country is destroying and capturing other countries, killing tens of thousands of Chechens Georgians Syrians and now Ukrainians, as long as it doesnt affect them, my analogy to the Germans in the 1930's was specific, the Germans loved taking Austria, the Sudetenland, etc etc Hitler made them feel great again, they didnt start to have doubts until allied bombers were blowing their homes up, it had nothing to do with right or wrong it was just self interest

Is that really any different than any other countries? 80% of Americans supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq when it happened, even though that eventually resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It was only after the major combat ended and the US continued to take causalities during the insurgency that support dropped.

[T-Dog]

I have a Facebook connection who is Russian and has been living in Calgary for a number of years. I can see all of her public comments she makes on news sites and she absolutely is aggressively supporting the Russian government position - attacking the Calgary Herald for not doing its job and just printing Western propaganda. She really believes that the civilian attacks have been staged and/or are the work of Ukrainian nazis and that Russia has been unfairly vilified. It’s shocking really how a Russian living in the West and having access to independent press can still aggressively support the Russian government narrative. I think this shows that there is definitely support for Putin’s war in Russia.

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1512803836599152640

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by T-Dog

I have a Facebook connection who is Russian and has been living in Calgary for a number of years. I can see all of her public comments she makes on news sites and she absolutely is aggressively supporting the Russian government position - attacking the Calgary Herald for not doing its job and just printing Western propaganda. She really believes that the civilian attacks have been staged and/or are the work of Ukrainian nazis and that Russia has been unfairly vilified. It’s shocking really how a Russian living in the West and having access to independent press can still aggressively support the Russian government narrative. I think this shows that there is definitely support for Putin’s war in Russia.

Does she have relatives in Russia? If she does, seems like she's doing her best to ensure they won't be jailed by Putin.