Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not at all. The people in this thread are not the common consumer I am talkin about. Spend 10-15 reading about EVs and its easy to see how much the technology has changed. One great example is electric forklifts. Absolutely the future, and yet I talk to people daily who ask 'well what do you do when the battery runs out, huh, huh'?



Not talking about consensus or even anything specific. Just talking about overall knowledge on what EVs are all about, how they work, how the technology has progressed, how charging works, what the cost difference is, etc. Not a lot of consumer knowledge out there, and it will absolutely create a barrier when it comes to more rapid transition in the future.

I think many consumers are learning more about them. There is a ton of information out there, people just need to "want" to look.

I imagine many of the detractors are always going to be detractors. Will end up calling them Trudeau/Biden wagons or something.

They have come far, though, as you stated. and a lot more consumers are giving them more than a mere thought.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not at all. The people in this thread are not the common consumer I am talkin about. Spend 10-15 reading about EVs and its easy to see how much the technology has changed. One great example is electric forklifts. Absolutely the future, and yet I talk to people daily who ask 'well what do you do when the battery runs out, huh, huh'?

lol, who questions electric forklifts? I've had one for a decade...that I bought used...it's a Toyota from the 1980s. I've never heard of anybody being hesitant about an electric forklift. That's hilarious.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, who questions electric forklifts? I've had one for a decade...that I bought used...it's a Toyota from the 1980s. I've never heard of anybody being hesitant about an electric forklift. That's hilarious.

What do you do when the battery runs out? Huh? Huh?!

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not at all. The people in this thread are not the common consumer I am talkin about. Spend 10-15 reading about EVs and its easy to see how much the technology has changed. One great example is electric forklifts. Absolutely the future, and yet I talk to people daily who ask 'well what do you do when the battery runs out, huh, huh'?

They might switch to hydrogen forklifts:

Around 100 forklifts or 80 percent of the vehicle fleet in the German retailer’s logistics centre in Carquefou, in Western France, already operate on green hydrogen, and the rest is to follow by the end of the year. The centre will be supplied with 75 kilograms of green hydrogen per day generated 75 kilometres away by company Lhyfe using wind energy.

Lidl said refuelling times had been decisive in its decision to opt for fuel cells. “The refuelling time for a hydrogen vehicle is only 2 to 3 minutes compared to several hours for a lead-acid battery,” the company said.

Hydrogen powered vehicles are available 97 percent of the time compared to approximately 50 percent with lead-acid technology, Lidl said, adding this required much fewer charging or refuelling spaces, and allowed a reduction of fleet inventories.

https://thedriven.io/2022/04/02/germ...gen-fuel-cell/

[Fuzz]

several hours for a lead-acid battery

I think I found your problem...

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think I found your problem...

Li-ion would greatly improve the performance of an electric forklift but it'll be more expensive upfront (compared to the old electric forklifts) and still will charge a lot slower than the hydrogen forklifts. To maximize the uptime the warehouse will probably also need to upgrade its electrical system. Charging infrastructure costs have been noted by a couple of American transit agencies as being unexpectedly expensive (though their needs are more challenging than a warehouse).

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think I found your problem...

Yeah, I guess not every use case is the same as mine where we can just charge overnight. Logistics warehouses where they're running 24/7 would not want to be waiting for batteries to charge.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Li-ion would greatly improve the performance of an electric forklift but it'll be more expensive upfront (compared to the old electric forklifts) and still will charge a lot slower than the hydrogen forklifts. To maximize the uptime the warehouse will probably also need to upgrade its electrical system. Charging infrastructure costs have been noted by a couple of American transit agencies as being unexpectedly expensive (though their needs are more challenging than a warehouse).

Sure, but I can't imagine hydrogen filling is all that cheap, either. Li-ion could probably cut the charge time to under an hour, but it's also more likely they would last much longer. So you need fewer of them to handle down time.

It also seems like something that could easily be handled with swap-able packs. That's where I'd be looking for a solution.

I always saw hydrogen as more useful for large, long distance travel, so I'm struggling to see how useful it is in the exact opposite situation. Maybe someone priced it out and it makes sense.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I guess not every use case is the same as mine where we can just charge overnight. Logistics warehouses where they're running 24/7 would not want to be waiting for batteries to charge.

From what I understand it is pretty simple to do? I'd have to look again.

Ownership cost for an electric is far lower, but you have to replace the battery after 10 years of decent use.

Our propane powered forklifts are running great 10-20 years later, but they cost about $600 each per year in preventative maintenance service, plus filters, cost of propane, etc.

Never really thought about the hydrogen version. Makes a lot more sense, and I assume it burns clean? Big reasons lots of places are going electric is reduction in the emissions and no need for C02 sensors and filter systems.

We are in the process of expanding our primary manufacturing facility, and one big sticking point is 'what forklifts are you running.' If we run electric, our air exchange system is significantly less expensive. If we run propane, it gets bonkers how much air needs to be exchanged, and the CFM exchange capacity if the monoxide alarms go off needs to be really high too.

Cheaper in the long-run to buy brand new electric versus sticking with existing propane.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Li-ion would greatly improve the performance of an electric forklift but it'll be more expensive upfront (compared to the old electric forklifts) and still will charge a lot slower than the hydrogen forklifts. To maximize the uptime the warehouse will probably also need to upgrade its electrical system. Charging infrastructure costs have been noted by a couple of American transit agencies as being unexpectedly expensive (though their needs are more challenging than a warehouse).

Plus you need charging stations, which is massive space hog, cost of maintenance, possibly needing an electrician on staff, etc.

Here in Manitoba charging costs are low, which is why we are seeing a lot of electric trucks, but for sure not true everywhere else.

Hydrogen makes a lot of sense, especially if there is ample supply and it can be run in the same way as propane.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I guess not every use case is the same as mine where we can just charge overnight. Logistics warehouses where they're running 24/7 would not want to be waiting for batteries to charge.

They just need one of those electrified grids on the ceiling and a power pole from the rear of the fork lift just like the bumper cars at an amusement park. Problem solved, where do I pick up my cheque?

[keratosis]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

They just need one of those electrified grids on the ceiling and a power pole from the rear of the fork lift just like the bumper cars at an amusement park. Problem solved, where do I pick up my cheque?

Except that forklifts lift loads. Cheque bounced.

[photon]

What ample supply of hydrogen?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by photon

What ample supply of hydrogen?

Refineries, water, etc. I believe it's one of the most abundant elements in the universe.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Refineries, water, etc. I believe it's one of the most abundant elements in the universe.

That's kind of like saying diamonds are abundant becuase we have no shortage of carbon.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's kind of like saying diamonds are abundant becuase we have no shortage of carbon.

No it's not like that at all. Diamonds aren't abundant.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

No it's not like that at all. Diamonds aren't abundant.

You need to put energy into water or hydrocarbons to get just hydrogen. You need to put energy into carbon to make diamonds. Hydrogen alone isn't abundant, unless you mean in space, in which case you still can't access it without expending loads of energy.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You need to put energy into water or hydrocarbons to get just hydrogen. You need to put energy into carbon to make diamonds. Hydrogen alone isn't abundant, unless you mean in space, in which case you still can't access it without expending loads of energy.

Well yeah but that's only one example. It's readily available in refineries all around the world and the infrastructure is already in place. Regardless of how many EV's populate the earth these refineries will still be producing product.

[photon]

In those cases hydrogen is just working as an expensive and inefficient battery, might as well just use an actual battery.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well yeah but that's only one example. It's readily available in refineries all around the world and the infrastructure is already in place. Regardless of how many EV's populate the earth these refineries will still be producing product.

From my understanding refineries don't just produce hydrogen as some sort of by-product. They need to expend extra energy to break the bond and release the hydrogen. So it isn't abundant without energy input. That's why it's called grey hydrogen (blue if the CO2 is captured), not green. So if you want blue hydrogen, you are spending even more money and energy.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories...olour-spectrum