[News] UPD: VGK/ANA Dadonov deal voided by the NHL

[getbak]

Well, Smith hasn't played in almost 3 weeks, so they could have put him on LTIR at any time, but didn't need to until Martinez was ready to return. There's nothing really remarkable about that. That's just how LTIR works.

It's not like Smith had a questionable injury flare up out of nowhere the day before he was put on LTIR.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Smith goes to LTIR, Martinez is instantly activated. The string of LTIR injuries coinciding with LTIR recoveries Vegas is pulling off is nothing short of a miracle.

Well, McCrimmon did explicitly say that they had a plan in place for managing the cap/LTIR when Eichel was ready to play. Amazing how they were able to predict when players would have to go on LTIR weeks in advance.

And in response to Getbak: that comment was made before Smith was on regular IR.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getbak

Well, Smith hasn't played in almost 3 weeks, so they could have put him on LTIR at any time, but didn't need to until Martinez was ready to return. There's nothing really remarkable about that. That's just how LTIR works.

It's not like Smith had a questionable injury flare up out of nowhere the day before he was put on LTIR.

Yeah I guess they could have had him on LTIR all this time, but they didn’t need to. Most teams have a guy on regular IR that would be LTIR if they needed the space.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Well, McCrimmon did explicitly say that they had a plan in place for managing the cap/LTIR when Eichel was ready to play. Amazing how they were able to predict when players would have to go on LTIR weeks in advance.

No, McCrimmon said that players would be injured, which always happens. Frankly, I think they've been flying this whole thing by the seat of their pants.

Nobody predicted ‘weeks in advance’ when players would have to go on LTIR. Smith has been out for weeks, as getbak points out.

You don't put a player on LTIR until you need the cap space. You gain nothing by doing that, but you lose the possibility of using the player if he recovers within the 10-game, 24-day minimum.

There is nothing to see here, but some people are determined to bash any facts to fit their conspiracy theory.

[N-E-B]

I gotta chuckle when people accuse Vegas of "cheating the system". They aren't cheating anything, they're using the system precisely as intended. This is how the system works. Just like how last year Tampa didn't do anything wrong.

Your issue is with the system as a whole, not individual teams using said system the way it was designed to be used. Nobody is cheating anything, and I'd hope and expect the Flames to use this system the exact same way should it ever be required.

All that said, I do think there's major issues with LTIR that need to be addressed, but until they're addressed I'm not going to fault any teams for using it.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

I think they're bending the rules for sure. Martinez has been full contact since January 20th. And it wasn't a joint or muscle injury. It was a face laceration. 50 stitches nasty, I get it, but hard to imagine why he can practice full contact for so long without being cleared to play.
Reilly also truly injured. Putting him on LTIR makes it very difficult for him to return for the regular season (although I'm sure Lehner will magically go to LTIR right around when Smith is healthy again) so I can see why they would take their time to evaluate. It's like they are trading players internally from LTIR to roster.

It's not the usage of LTIR which is bending rules. That's cool. I think they're bending the rules on keeping players on LTIR when, under normal circumstances, they'd be cleared to play.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I think they're bending the rules for sure. Martinez has been full contact since January 20th. And it wasn't a joint or muscle injury. It was a face laceration. 50 stitches nasty, I get it, but hard to imagine why he can practice full contact for so long without being cleared to play.
Reilly also truly injured. Putting him on LTIR makes it very difficult for him to return for the regular season (although I'm sure Lehner will magically go to LTIR right around when Smith is healthy again) so I can see why they would take their time to evaluate. It's like they are trading players internally from LTIR to roster.

It's not the usage of LTIR which is bending rules. That's cool. I think they're bending the rules on keeping players on LTIR when, under normal circumstances, they'd be cleared to play.

Martinez reportedly had concussion symptoms, though he came back over the weekend.

Vegas has said both Lehner and McNabb are close to returning.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Martinez reportedly had concussion symptoms, though he came back over the weekend.

Vegas has said both Lehner and McNabb are close to returning.

Hush, you, with your facts and stuff. It's all cheating, I tells ya! All cheating! Everyone on the Vegas roster is perfectly healthy, and they're all in a back room laughing at the rest of the league!

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I think they're bending the rules for sure. Martinez has been full contact since January 20th. And it wasn't a joint or muscle injury. It was a face laceration. 50 stitches nasty, I get it, but hard to imagine why he can practice full contact for so long without being cleared to play.

It was a face laceration caused by taking a skate to the face. It shouldn't be surprising that he had concussion symptoms too.

As we've seen with many players before (Ferland for example), players can feel fine in practice for a long time, then attempt a return only to have their symptoms get worse as they ramp up the intensity. "Full contact" or not, practice is never going to have the intensity of a game.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

...Putting him on LTIR makes it very difficult for him to return for the regular season (although I'm sure Lehner will magically go to LTIR right around when Smith is healthy again) so I can see why they would take their time to evaluate. It's like they are trading players internally from LTIR to roster.

It's not "magic." It is how the system works. It makes no sense for VGK to place Lehner on LTIR until absolutely necessary. They will wait until the timing is right to do so.

It's not the usage of LTIR which is bending rules. That's cool. I think they're bending the rules on keeping players on LTIR when, under normal circumstances, they'd be cleared to play.

Wrong. What you are describing is the difference between being cleared by physicians to play (who will invariably prefer that players stay out until deemed 100% healthy), and players insisting on playing in situations in which there is outside pressure to play—like in the playoffs or in the heat of a playoff race. If they could, VGK would have players back in the lineup immediately to ensure that they do not miss the playoffs. But, they can't—either because players are actually not close to returning, or because their cap situation prevents an early return.


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[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It's not "magic." It is how the system works. It makes no sense for VGK to place Lehner on LTIR until absolutely necessary. They will wait until the timing is right to do so.


Wrong. What you are describing is the difference between being cleared by physicians to play (who will invariably prefer that players stay out until deemed 100% healthy), and players insisting on playing in situations in which there is outside pressure to play—like in the playoffs or in the heat of a playoff race. If they could, VGK would have players back in the lineup immediately to ensure that they do not miss the playoffs. But, they can't—either because players are actually not close to returning, or because their cap situation prevents an early return.


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We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m convinced Vegas is keeping players on LTIR longer than the team or player wants.

I should be clear on the point I’m trying to make. I don’t think this is an advantage for them. They could very well screw themselves out of a playoff position. But I do believe terrible management has put them in a position where they have to bend the rules a bit to stay cap compliant and avoid penalties. I’m likely being pedantic as, at the end of the day, it’s working out just fine for Flames fans.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Hush, you, with your facts and stuff. It's all cheating, I tells ya! All cheating! Everyone on the Vegas roster is perfectly healthy, and they're all in a back room laughing at the rest of the league!

Not one poster has said they are all perfectly healthy yet you continue

You have to be quite the rube to still think they didn't try and stretch the rules. Yes it's blowing up in their face...unless they make the playoffs because in that case they will ice the 90+M team and these regular season issues won't matter.

League is discussing LTIR loopholes right now and the timing isn't a coincidence

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Not one poster has said they are all perfectly healthy yet you continue

You yourself have said that Martinez was perfectly healthy. You've often said

You have to be quite the rube to still think they didn't try and stretch the rules.

Insult noted, as is your lack of any other argument. Calling me a rube doesn't make me wrong, it just makes you rude.

Yes it's blowing up in their face...unless they make the playoffs because in that case they will ice the 90+M team and these regular season issues won't matter.

You still assume that all their injured players will be magically able to play on day 1 of the playoffs… which means you don't believe they're actually injured at all.

League is discussing LTIR loopholes right now and the timing isn't a coincidence

Right. The league always talks about things that are giving it bad PR, whether legitimate or not, because they don't want people like you badmouthing them.

We'll see what they actually do about the matter.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dino7c

League is discussing LTIR loopholes right now and the timing isn't a coincidence

Are they?

All I have heard is that they are exploring putting a "playoff cap" in for the post season, have not heard that they are actually changing LTIR rules.

Friedman on with Stellick this morning said he understands that GM's have no issue with the system as it exists.

Of course any ideas they might want to move forward with have to be collectively bargained with the PA, so I'm not sure there will be any changes for at least 4 years if at all.

[dino7c]

A playoff cap would fix the major issues with LTIR being abused IMO

As for Martinez he 100% was hurt I just feel strongly that he would have played earlier if they had cap space.

I'm willing to bet that multiple LTIR players play in round one if they make it, I'm guessing none of you would actually make that bet because deep down you know.

[getbak]

They could have made room for Martinez more than 2 weeks ago by putting any one of Lehner, Smith, or Pacioretty on LTIR when the extent of their injuries became known.

[transplant99]

I noticed as well that Martinez played less than 14 minutes the other night.

I would guess his normal work load to be 20 minutes a night.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Friedman on with Stellick this morning said he understands that GM's have no issue with the system as it exists.

Friedman also mentioned that a number of GMs would like to see changes, but there's no agreement among them about how the system should be changed. Nobody wants changes that might hurt his team.

So the fact that the league is talking about the issue means very little.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, McCrimmon said that players would be injured, which always happens. Frankly, I think they've been flying this whole thing by the seat of their pants.

Nobody predicted ‘weeks in advance’ when players would have to go on LTIR. Smith has been out for weeks, as getbak points out.

You don't put a player on LTIR until you need the cap space. You gain nothing by doing that, but you lose the possibility of using the player if he recovers within the 10-game, 24-day minimum.

There is nothing to see here, but some people are determined to bash any facts to fit their conspiracy theory.

Actually, I believe he said that there was a plan, and that "players get injured". So, in other words, he predicted beforehand that players would become injured whose salary cap relief would be enough to activate Eichel when ready. Talk about prescience!

This is not to say that players are fraudulently being moved to LTIR. But they are making trades that are only possible if players are kept on LTIR even if they are ready to return.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

But they are making trades that are only possible if players are kept on LTIR even if they are ready to return.

You're implying that they knew in advance exactly when those players would be ready to return, when at the time of the Eichel trade, most of those injuries had not even happened yet. Prescience indeed!

As other posters have pointed out, Martinez could have been activated at any time in the last two weeks, just by moving another player from IR to LTIR. He wasn't, which should be sufficient evidence that he was returned as soon as he was ready. I don't think the Knights kept him out of the lineup just for giggles, do you?