Russia invades Ukraine

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am going to go full tinfoil hat conspiracy theory in a way, something I never really do, and say the poor bastard had an actual heart attack.

The Defense Minister is nearly 67, reached an age that the majority of Russian men don't achieve due to health and alcohol related issues.

Being in his position and having to deal with a war of this scale, with this level of strategic maneuvering, the level of general losses in both men, equipment and strategic importance plus having to deal with a mad men like Putin?

The stress alone on having to update Putin on a regular basis and disappoint him with what is actually happening? These 4 weeks must have added 400 weeks to his health.

Yeah, the guy probably has a diet of kolbassa, vodka, and cigarettes, he has been in pretty much the most stressful job in the world for the last few weeks, and his boss is literally a tyrannical dictator. A surprising number of Allied commanders in WW2 had heart attacks and nervous breakdowns on the job, even while they were winning.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Russian media says, Donetsk Republic now accepts Ukranian currency (hrivna) along with Russian ruble.

Okay so did they previously just accept rubles? (officially)

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Okay so did they previously just accept rubles? (officially)

Yes, or at least it was worded that way.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Yes, or at least it was worded that way.

Okay, so, do you have any guess as to why they would even publicize that?

Seems weird. It's somewhat obscure and irrelevant to the lives of people in Russia, and the only narrative I can see it fitting in is "the ruble is effed as a currency".

I'm also wondering, why even make this decision, why now? With the current plan being to make Donetsk officially part of Russia, where does this fit in?

A desperate attempt to appease people of Donetsk?

EDIT: Obviously since it's Russian official news there's a good chance it's not actually true, but... that doesn't help explain anything?

[nik-]

Denazification going well.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-702380

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Itse

Okay, so, do you have any guess as to why they would even publicize that?

Seems weird. It's somewhat obscure and irrelevant to the lives of people in Russia, and the only narrative I can see it fitting in is "the ruble is effed as a currency".

I'm also wondering, why even make this decision, why now? With the current plan being to make Donetsk officially part of Russia, where does this fit in?

A desperate attempt to appease people of Donetsk?

EDIT: Obviously since it's Russian official news there's a good chance it's not actually true, but... that doesn't help explain anything?

I agree it doesn't make much sense. The best I can come up with is that since 46% of Donetsk Republic is controlled by Ukranians, they use ukranian currency on roughly half of the territory. So if rebels "liberate" a village, villagers will have to use hrivnas to buy food and it should be allowed, otherwise rebels government will need to hand out a lot of rubles and this basically creates an unnecessary hindrance.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I agree it doesn't make much sense. The best I can come up with is that since 46% of Donetsk Republic is controlled by Ukranians, they use ukranian currency on roughly half of the territory. So if rebels "liberate" a village, villagers will have to use hrivnas to buy food and it should be allowed, otherwise rebels government will need to hand out a lot of rubles and this basically creates an unnecessary hindrance.

Okay that's actually not a terrible explanation. Still seems weird as news or official policy, seems like stuff that's likely solved on location anyway. Seems like weird micromanagement.

[Itse]

Biden made a big speech today in Poland;

U.S. President Joe Biden said on Saturday that Russia's leader Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power" in a fiery speech pushing the world's democracies to unite to support Ukraine, though the White House later said Biden was not calling for regime change in Moscow.

"For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power," Biden told a crowd in Warsaw after condemning Putin's month-long war in Ukraine as an assault on global freedom and security.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ch-2022-03-26/

Got to say, this makes me feel weird and uncomfortable. On one hand I get it, it's obvious this is what the west is trying to achieve anyway. Also, I agree with Biden, at this point removing Putin from power is the only chance for any kind of longterm stability, because even if he was beaten now, he would only double his efforts to get back at the rest of the world in any and every way he can, possibly causing more instability and chaos, and more pain for the Russian people. Putin is clearly past the point of caring in even the smallest way about what his actions might do to his own people. (Not that he ever cared much.)

On the other, it feels like something best not said aloud. The Russians need to do this themselves, and the optics of Biden saying it out aloud I think just make it harder. At least it makes it easier for Putin to paint anyone opposing him as a western agent.

I don't get it.

That said, I would imagine Biden has quite a lot of people going through his speeches and evaluating the effect it would have in Russia (if any), and maybe they know what they're doing.

Still makes me uncomfortable.

[Huntingwhale]

Meh, Putin seems to have no issue sending squad after squad of assassins after Zelensky. He straight up said he wants to remove the Ukrainian government. It's alright in his books to talk about removing a democratically elected President in his sham war. Now he doesn't like when someone says the same thing about him? Cry me a river.

[Sainters7]

But he's just trying to take down a country full of Neo-Nazis, remember? Some of the convos I've had on twitter lately are downright insane with people who truly believe that steaming pile of #### excuse.

One even hit me with a pic of Zelenskyy holding up a soccer jersey with a swastika on it, like he truly believes its real and that's all the evidence you need. Complete insanity...

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Meh, Putin seems to have no issue sending squad after squad of assassins after Zelensky. He straight up said he wants to remove the Ukrainian government. It's alright in his books to talk about removing a democratically elected President in his sham war. Now he doesn't like when someone says the same thing about him? Cry me a river.

I couldn't care less what Putin thinks, and none of this is news to him.

I'm thinking about other reactions in Russia since, once again, the only way to get rid of Putin is if Russians do it themselves.

I also worry somewhat about the propaganda value... Although I'm not sure if it matters at all at this point, Russia's propaganda machine is so insane already.

[chubeyr1]

Originally Posted by Itse

Biden made a big speech today in Poland;



https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ch-2022-03-26/

Got to say, this makes me feel weird and uncomfortable. On one hand I get it, it's obvious this is what the west is trying to achieve anyway. Also, I agree with Biden, at this point removing Putin from power is the only chance for any kind of longterm stability, because even if he was beaten now, he would only double his efforts to get back at the rest of the world in any and every way he can, possibly causing more instability and chaos, and more pain for the Russian people. Putin is clearly past the point of caring in even the smallest way about what his actions might do to his own people. (Not that he ever cared much.)

On the other, it feels like something best not said aloud. The Russians need to do this themselves, and the optics of Biden saying it out aloud I think just make it harder. At least it makes it easier for Putin to paint anyone opposing him as a western agent.

I don't get it.

That said, I would imagine Biden has quite a lot of people going through his speeches and evaluating the effect it would have in Russia (if any), and maybe they know what they're doing.

Still makes me uncomfortable.

Biden should not of said what he said in the media.

Pretty much everyone wants Putin gone. I get it. Yet that can be turned and twisted in so many different ways. Not in good ways.

[Plett25]

I think Biden just took a play from the Putin/Russian playbook.

Escalate to de-escalate.

Now, Putin staying in power is a win for Russia. It's another off ramp.

[chubeyr1]

Originally Posted by Itse

I couldn't care less what Putin thinks, and none of this is news to him.

I'm thinking about other reactions in Russia since, once again, the only way to get rid of Putin is if Russians do it themselves.

I also worry somewhat about the propaganda value... Although I'm not sure if it matters at all at this point, Russia's propaganda machine is so insane already.

The Wests propaganda machine is in full force too. I mean it should be. It can be used as a weapon so why not?

[chubeyr1]

Originally Posted by Plett25

I think Biden just took a play from the Putin/Russian playbook.

Escalate to de-escalate.

Now, Putin staying in power is a win for Russia. It's another off ramp.

If he had no nukes and his country was under attack and losing the war badly with the threat of him being replaced or killed. The West supporting him as a leader might make a difference. ie Iraq.

Yet he still is in a position of great strength. Russia is not being physically attacked.

I see no way that this ends because the West will allow Putin to stay in power. The West does not have that type of control over Russia.

Putin is in power. In charge. Why settle for something you already have?

He wont. At least not at this time.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

The Wests propaganda machine is in full force too. I mean it should be. It can be used as a weapon so why not?

Yeah it's active, but not nearly as insane.

They can't afford to be, since there's plenty of free media to call them out on outright lies.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yeah it's active, but not nearly as insane.

They can't afford to be, since there's plenty of free media to call them out on outright lies.

Lots of Western media are borderline propaganda outlets themselves.

There are dissenting opinions of course, but BS information and outright lies are still very prevalent or did you miss the last 2 years of constantly conflicting Pandemic information?

The only real difference is that there are options of who to listen to, read, etc.

I think the real difficulty is that Russians are so used to it and surrounded and inundated by it that its become difficult to tell the truth from the lies.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Locke

Lots of Western media are borderline propaganda outlets themselves.

There are dissenting opinions of course, but BS information and outright lies are still very prevalent or did you miss the last 2 years of constantly conflicting Pandemic information?

The only real difference is that there are options of who to listen to, read, etc.

I think the real difficulty is that Russians are so used to it and surrounded and inundated by it that its become difficult to tell the truth from the lies.

Okay, you have a point there.

However, I would still argue that the situation isn't in any way symmetrical. Sure you have places like the UK where media prints the most incredible garbage even at the best of times, but that's national media speaking to their own in a country where they don't follow international news sources much. Kind of like Russia really, just with more varying sources of garbage, and they DO have free quality media in the UK, unlike Russia.

However, the anti-Russian alliance is an international coalition, and so every western leader when talking in public is always talking to the people of every other country already involved in the conflict AND to countries they're trying to get to join in on the sanctions.

When Biden talks in Poland about Ukraine or Russia, it gets printed in Finland, Sweden, Baltics, Czech, Hungary etc, and it gets picked apart by everyone. Everyone of those countries is engaging in internal dialogues about the sanctions and the help they're giving to Ukraine, about their relationship to NATO etc.

Putin and his cronies are bullcrapping a much more unified audience and they have the power to silence dissenting voices. Not so for Biden.

Also, while lots of US media is basically propaganda, half of it is anti-Biden propaganda.

[Cheese]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507833771499954176

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507824433951649797

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507770959641681925

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507810113293324299