Russia invades Ukraine

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Russian soldiers are the ones indiscriminately killing and terrorizing civilians.

They are complicit. The person pulling the trigger is just as guilty as the one giving the order.

The only Russian soldiers that shouldn't be killed are the ones that surrender, otherwise they are invading a sovereign country and committing war crimes with the express purpose of killing and committing genocide.

Russian soldiers have a choice, as seen by "Misha". But if they are holding a gun while invading a sovereign country and continue to hold it after being provided a choice to lay their weapons down, they have made a choice as well.

When you get down to basics, all war is a range of crimes on a spectrum from not severe to extremely severe and cruel. There isn't a single Russian soldier in Ukraine that isn't there by breaking Ukrainian law. At a bare minimum, they are are illegally entering the country (crime) with the intent to destroy Ukrainian property (crime) and intent kill Ukrainian soldiers (crime). Those are just the bare minimum crimes that each foreign soldier is committing and from there, it only gets worse. Humans have a way a separating war from other acts of violence, but the only real difference is who is holding the gavel and not on the actual actions that are taking place.

Just following orders doesn't cut it. The gang member that commits a crime because they are afraid of the gang they are in, is still guilty for committing the crime.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

When you get down to basics, all war is a range of crimes on a spectrum from not severe to extremely severe and cruel. There isn't a single Russian soldier in Ukraine that isn't there by breaking Ukrainian law. At a bare minimum, they are are illegally entering the country (crime) with the intent to destroy Ukrainian property (crime) and intent kill Ukrainian soldiers (crime). Those are just the bare minimum crimes that each foreign soldier is committing and from there, it only gets worse. Humans have a way a separating war from other acts of violence, but the only real difference is who is holding the gavel and not on the actual actions that are taking place.

Just following orders doesn't cut it. The gang member that commits a crime because they are afraid of the gang they are in, is still guilty for committing the crime.

All of that gets conveniently set aside when it’s our own country or allies engaged in a war of choice. The destruction, the killing. The bombed cities. The children blown to bits. All regrettable collateral damage.

War is a crime because it’s war.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

but I am



the should take prisoners and treat them humanely



but I don't and they are not as it relates to Russian aggressors in Ukraine.

Sorry UCB, you're obviously not understanding Jammies here. By celebrating dead Russian soldiers you are actively causing more atrocities to take place and keeping Putin in power. This is on you. Please call off the artillery strikes on urban centers in Ukraine, I beg you.

[sureLoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507374658877857805

[Fuzz]

Is that different than the one that got run over yesterday? I had read he wasn't killed, but was evac'ed

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that different than the one that got run over yesterday? I had read he wasn't killed, but was evac'ed

Yeah it appears to be the same guy and there are pictures of him evac'ed but apparently he died to his injuries?

[Pointman]

Russian military hastily declared, that Ukranian air, anti-air and sea forces are "entirely destroyed" and "ceased to exist". It's not true obviously, but it is hopefully a step towards declaring "special operation" a success and retreating back home.

[eddly]

If Russia pulls out of Ukraine… I wonder what will happen with the eastern regions that are pro-Russia… Ukraine will continue against those regions using Western weapons? What about Crimea… sure that isn’t a concern for now…

[sureLoss]

Yeah Russia is saying they will now focus their efforts in Eastern Ukraine. It looks like they might just take those areas, annex or set them up as autonomous regions, and claim mission accomplished.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share

The chief of the Russian army says Russia will now focus its main war effort on the "complete liberation" of the eastern Ukrainian Donbas region.

The defence ministry said Russia had been considering two options for its "special military operation" - one covering the whole of Ukraine and one focusing on the Donbas.

The comments - carried by Russian state news agencies - hinted at a possible downgrading of Russia's war aims. Russian forces have met strong resistance in the north of Ukraine and around Kyiv.

Sergey Rudskoy, head of the main operational department of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, said 93% of Luhansk oblast and 54% of Donetsk oblast was under Russian control.

Russia had destroyed the vast majority of Ukraine's air force and navy, and this marked the successful end of the first phase of the conflict, he added.

However, the defence ministry did not rule out storming Ukrainian cities that had been blockaded and said Russia would react immediately to any move to close airspace over Ukraine - something President Zelensky has repeatedly urged.

The ministry also said Russia would continue its invasion until targets set by Putin had been achieved, Ria news agency reported, without specifying what the targets were

[jammies]

Originally Posted by karl262

Sorry UCB, you're obviously not understanding Jammies here. By celebrating dead Russian soldiers you are actively causing more atrocities to take place and keeping Putin in power. This is on you. Please call off the artillery strikes on urban centers in Ukraine, I beg you.

It's possible to acknowledge the necessity of death without celebrating that necessity as if is a positive good.

Stoking negative emotions is how Putin stays in power and starts his wars. Giving him validation by reinforcing the world-view that the world is out to get Russia doesn't help, does it? Explain to me how celebrating dead Russian soldiers hastens the end of the war, or cultivates a permanent end to Russian aggression. It doesn't. It's just a selfish indulgence in righteous denunciation to relieve the feeling of powerlessness engendered by witnessing horrors you have no control over.

[FlameOn]

For a colonel to get run over tho, that's nuts. More than half his units were casualties. Rank and file have must be super pissed how badly this has gone for them, even if they were pro invasion. If you use the usual rule of thumb where injuries are 2.5-3x number of killed and Russians have 10-15K killed now, you are talking somewhere between 30-50K casualties of the original 200K invasion force. His can't be the only unit on the brink.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think all of you need to stop focusing on rules, the US and NATO are happy to invent any pretext, like Russia, to throw their weight around when they want to, the only difference today is the US doesnt have an appetite for a new war, Biden was elected on ending the war in the middle east, nor do they want to risk a nuclear war with a clearly unhinged Russia, right now the west is getting the best of everything, Russia's army is devastated and will take several decades to rebuild, in truth Poland and the Baltics have nothing to fear, Russia is all but defenceless right now, it has no ability to project force at all, it's equipment has been shown to be bog awful, and we haven't had to do more than feed the Ukrainians with rockets

100%, best of everything. Only a minor loss of life and suffering things are super west is waking away all roses.

[Cheese]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507397435450138627


Alexei Sharov, colonel of the 810th Separate Guards Marine Brigade of the Black Sea Fleet, was killed by a Ukrainian sniper, according to Russian authorities.

[PeteMoss]

What a shocking disaster this has been for Russia.

Its obviously been disaster for Ukraine as well but that was expected.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by nik-

At the same time, those soldiers are the ones actually flattening cities. So #### Russian soldiers, directly. The separation between leaders and soldiers was the first week. They're the ones still killing civilians when they can actually just stop.

Deserting in a time of war (or whatever euphemism the Russian gov't is calling this) can get you shot. Armies are set up to enforce discipline and obedience, the idea that soldiers can just say, "Welp, I'm out, cya doods!" is naive. It takes either opportunity (hey, I'm separated from my unit and nobody is going to notice me gone for days!) or extraordinary courage.

Humans are extremely good at rationalizing their actions to absolve themselves of blame. It's much easier to say "I just aim the artillery at some co-ordinates, it's not my fault that was a hospital" or "I just passed on the co-ordinates that I got from HQ" or "I just went on the intelligence data that said it was an armoury" or "My job as a general is to win wars, not humanitarian awards" than "What I am doing is wrong and the consequences of doing evil are worse than the consequences of disobeying orders".

Not to say that makes any soldier innocent, but people being people is an insoluble problem. We should be focusing on how to topple the hierarchies that gain from control and violence. Steps like freezing the assets of oligarchs, banning them from our countries, indicting them in international courts, and most importantly, not doing business with regimes headed by criminals. Unfortunately, we've built a world where we rely on thugs and oppression to keep consumer goods cheap, so we are rightly seen as hypocrites and have all the moral authority attached to that label, which is none.

[Pointman]

Russian military officially declares that the target is to "liberate" two breakaway republics. They gave up on taking Kyiv.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Russian military officially declares that the target is to "liberate" two breakaway republics. They gave up on taking Kyiv.

They didn't 'give' up...

Their main forces still remaining around Kyiv are encircled and about to be totally obliterated.

The Donbas / Mariupol front is the only area that Russians have any type of foothold on and that may not last in the mid term as counterattacks eventually reach the area.

Russian just starting losing control of Kherson as well, soon to be fully back in Ukrainian hands.

Heck the way it's going the land bridge to Crimea may be in danger of falling back to Ukraine as well.

This is going from FUBAR to TARFU level, Russia will soon give us some new terms never used. Soon even the so called "liberation" of the two republic will turn into only one, and who knows in the future.

[Firebot]

Every 24 hours, it seems that Russia's situation gets twice as bad.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507291138759303171

The losses which were already unsustainable are accelerating at unprecedented speed.

Notable inclusion of the Orsk as one of the 5 boats.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Russian military officially declares that the target is to "liberate" two breakaway republics. They gave up on taking Kyiv.

Where would Ukraine stand on this declaration, though? Can't imagine they would just rollover and let those areas be annexed.

Nor would the sanctions just go away.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by jammies

Deserting in a time of war (or whatever euphemism the Russian gov't is calling this) can get you shot. Armies are set up to enforce discipline and obedience, the idea that soldiers can just say, "Welp, I'm out, cya doods!" is naive. It takes either opportunity (hey, I'm separated from my unit and nobody is going to notice me gone for days!) or extraordinary courage.

Humans are extremely good at rationalizing their actions to absolve themselves of blame. It's much easier to say "I just aim the artillery at some co-ordinates, it's not my fault that was a hospital" or "I just passed on the co-ordinates that I got from HQ" or "I just went on the intelligence data that said it was an armoury" or "My job as a general is to win wars, not humanitarian awards" than "What I am doing is wrong and the consequences of doing evil are worse than the consequences of disobeying orders".

Not to say that makes any soldier innocent, but people being people is an insoluble problem. We should be focusing on how to topple the hierarchies that gain from control and violence. Steps like freezing the assets of oligarchs, banning them from our countries, indicting them in international courts, and most importantly, not doing business with regimes headed by criminals. Unfortunately, we've built a world where we rely on thugs and oppression to keep consumer goods cheap, so we are rightly seen as hypocrites and have all the moral authority attached to that label, which is none.

Yeah but war is a ton of situations that can get you shot. There are soldiers deserting. It's clearly an option if they don't want to rationalize ways to absolve themselves of shelling an apartment building or a hospital. Am I making a toast every time some Russian soldier's body is laying in a burnt out piece of armor? No. But I'm definitely not feeling anything close to remorse, or empathy. Each of their deaths is less potential for destruction in Ukraine. It's less potential for another civilian car to get lit up because it happened to pull up to an intersection at the same time as a Russian AFV. Every one helps to tear down the charade of a country that's been a drag on liberal progress for decades. In my opinion that makes it a positive. Death sucks, but the death of someone actively trying to destroy a place, and a people, sucks a little less.