Russia invades Ukraine

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

If Russia were to nuke Kyiv, would that provoke a military response from Nato? What's the difference if they create the same results with conventional weapons?

I think it's time to start creating our own red lines and let Putin be the one to think very carefully if he wants to cross them.

Because Ukraine isn't in Nato, theoretically not. However, they can't give Putin the idea that he can use those weapons without a fear of response. So I think in some back channel way they've warned Putin about the consequences of using nukes.


I mean the one thing that still baffles me is that Russia has a large quantity of chemical weapons that they haven't used yet.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Because Ukraine isn't in Nato, theoretically not. However, they can't give Putin the idea that he can use those weapons without a fear of response. So I think in some back channel way they've warned Putin about the consequences of using nukes.


I mean the one thing that still baffles me is that Russia has a large quantity of chemical weapons that they haven't used yet.

Yeah but they don't want to kill Ukrainians, they want to liberate them.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by SebC

If Russia were to nuke Kyiv, would that provoke a military response from Nato? What's the difference if they create the same results with conventional weapons?

Probably not for nukes, definitely not for conventional weapons, and the difference is called "nuclear fallout". However...

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Because Ukraine isn't in Nato, theoretically not. However, they can't give Putin the idea that he can use those weapons without a fear of response.

... I don't know this, but I'm sure that the use of nuclear weapons in Kiev would violate a bunch of anti-proliferation and other treaties to which I presume Russia is a party, and for which there would be consequences of some sort. Not sure what other consequences there are available to be imposed aside from cutting off the gas to German and co.

The purpose of NATO is to keep Russia in check with an understanding that if you attack a NATO country, NATO will retaliate militarily and you've started WWIII. The necessary implication is that if you attack someone who ISN'T in NATO, NATO won't respond militarily. And unsurprisingly, NATO has been very clear that they won't respond militarily here.

Frankly, there's at least some question about whether or not NATO would actually respond if, say, Lithuania was attacked as opposed to one of the countries we actually care about, but I think honestly the answer is, if you let them into NATO you have to be prepared to defend them whether they're Romania or Latvia or England. No difference in the required response. So I guess that answers your question about where the red line is.

[Ducay]

This isn't some mutually exclusive debate. Putin and Russia can be physcos at the same time that we can see US/Western actions contributed. Of course joining EU or NATO shouldn't get a country invaded and no one is arguing as much, but we can see why Russia may have been forced to act based on their views of Ukraine as a defensive shield.

Use Taiwan as an example, if they applied to join NATO today with US backing, China would invade tomorrow (or today) knowing they have to act before it can be ratified and guaranteeing WW3. No one in their right mind would say China is justified or in the right, but we could also acknowledge that the decision by the West was a cause.

Ukraine is Russia's Taiwan (imperfect analogy but point stands) and is the rough point people have been making for years. Russia cannot/will not allow it to join NATO, and would sooner invade and destroy the country than let that happen. That is exactly the war we're in right now.

[starseed]

Apparently the Kremlin is losing control of the narrative internally, so the speculation is that the next step is to declare martial law in Russia on Friday.


https://twitter.com/Stanovaya/status...aMjhuSXAKAgZ1Q


The speculation could be leading to hysteria in Russia, and a rush to the borders:


https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/sta...4xWnbeyQhtyWMw

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Ducay

This isn't some mutually exclusive debate. Putin and Russia can be physcos at the same time that we can see US/Western actions contributed. Of course joining EU or NATO shouldn't get a country invaded and no one is arguing as much, but we can see why Russia may have been forced to act based on their views of Ukraine as a defensive shield.

Use Taiwan as an example, if they applied to join NATO today with US backing, China would invade tomorrow (or today) knowing they have to act before it can be ratified and guaranteeing WW3. No one in their right mind would say China is justified or in the right, but we could also acknowledge that the decision by the West was a cause.

Ukraine is Russia's Taiwan (imperfect analogy but point stands) and is the rough point people have been making for years. Russia cannot/will not allow it to join NATO, and would sooner invade and destroy the country than let that happen. That is exactly the war we're in right now.

There was no indication that Ukraine was going to be in NATO anytime soon.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Matata

The US, through NATO had been pushing for more influence in the region for decades prior.



Tell that to US military intelligence, they've been very keen to set up shop on Russia's doorstep. To paraphrase Sun Tzu: "Victory in war is not to fight and defeat your enemies, it is to make your position so insurmountable that none dare to challenge you."

That's all great, but it's 2022 not 1890.

Countries are free to do what they want. To think a country is getting assistance from another country to push an invasion of a neighbouring country is ridiculous. At least in the western world. I'm probably naive though.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

There was no indication that Ukraine was going to be in NATO anytime soon.

Maybe not NATO but Russia wanted to prevent the Ukraine getting into the EU first.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yeah but they don't want to kill Ukrainians, they want to liberate them.

not sure if serious........

[Leondros]

Pretty crazy news, not unexpected

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/20..._campaign=none

The sale of the Club will not be fast-tracked but will follow due process. I will not be asking for any loans to be repaid. This has never been about business nor money for me, but about pure passion for the game and Club. Moreover, I have instructed my team to set up a charitable foundation where all net proceeds from the sale will be donated. The foundation will be for the benefit of all victims of the war in Ukraine. This includes providing critical funds towards the urgent and immediate needs of victims, as well as supporting the long-term work of recovery.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by leondros

pretty crazy news, not unexpected

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/20..._campaign=none

wow

[FlamesAddiction]

Honestly, what seems like the more likely scenario. That Russia wanted to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO because they were worried about NATO attacking Russia, or because they wanted to leave the option of taking over Ukraine on the table without fear of retaliation?

Don't tell me this goes back to Hitler and Napoleon invading Russia as a reason to be suspicious of NATO. Those guys invaded a lot of countries, most of which not only willingly joined NATO already, but petitioned to join NATO as soon as they could.

Making excuses for Russia's behaviour is comparable to abused women making excuses for the abusers when they believe it was their own fault for not obeying and making him so angry, and Russia's attitude towards Ukraine and other post-Soviet and Russian Empire countries is like the stalker ex-boyfriend who thinks she would still love him if it wasn't for her annoying friends putting thoughts in her head.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Pretty crazy news, not unexpected

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/20..._campaign=none

That's nuts. I wonder if he's doing it out of economic necessity. Could also be that he knows his assets will likely be frozen if he holds onto them and is pre-emptively liquidating while he can.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

https://www.businessinsider.in/inter...w/89941709.cms

Ukrainian authorities have reassured citizens that they don't need to declare captured Russian tanks or any equipment they pick up as personal income.

"Have you captured a Russian tank or armored personnel carrier and are worried about how to declare it? Keep calm and continue to defend the Motherland!" read a statement from the Ukrainian National Agency on Corruption Prevention (NACP) seen by Interfax Ukraine.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Pretty crazy news, not unexpected

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/20..._campaign=none

For a guy to give away the proceeds....what has he done to feel he needs to commit to such a gesture?

The amount of money this guy stole must be ridiculous to be pandering to the public this way.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by blankall

That's nuts. I wonder if he's doing it out of economic necessity. Could also be that he knows his assets will likely be frozen if he holds onto them and is pre-emptively liquidating while he can.

I wonder if it's a gesture of good will so he can skirt some of the sanctions.

The statement reads that "net proceeds" will be donated to a foundation for Ukraine.

"Net proceeds" could be an enormous amount, as RA bought the Club for ~£140mm and reports indicate it could fetch up to £4B now.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by starseed

Apparently the Kremlin is losing control of the narrative internally, so the speculation is that the next step is to declare martial law in Russia on Friday.


https://twitter.com/Stanovaya/status...aMjhuSXAKAgZ1Q


The speculation could be leading to hysteria in Russia, and a rush to the borders:


https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/sta...4xWnbeyQhtyWMw

Following Justin Trudeau's tyranical lead.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by you&me

I wonder if it's a gesture of good will so he can skirt some of the sanctions.

The statement reads that "net proceeds" will be donated to a foundation for Ukraine.

"Net proceeds" could be an enormous amount, as RA bought the Club for ~£140mm and reports indicate it could fetch up to £4B now.

Maybe I'm being cynical, and this is a legitimate goodwill gesture.

The sale of the Club will not be fast-tracked but will follow due process. I will not be asking for any loans to be repaid. This has never been about business nor money for me, but about pure passion for the game and Club. Moreover, I have instructed my team to set up a charitable foundation where all net proceeds from the sale will be donated. The foundation will be for the benefit of all victims of the war in Ukraine. This includes providing critical funds towards the urgent and immediate needs of victims, as well as supporting the long-term work of recovery.

That's a serious amount of money to be donating, if true. Surely this will put him at odds with Putin though? I'm guessing I'm not seeing all the angles for why he is doing this.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Torture

Following Justin Trudeau's tyranical lead.

Came to post the same thing. Straight from Justin's playbook.

[the_only_turek_fan]

I haven’t been following this thread completely, but why can’t the US, UK, and EU counter with air strikes?