02-28-2022, 09:39 AM
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#1841
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: About 5200 Miles from the Dome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
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I don't know the details of what has been happening in the Donbass region at all. Has there really been constant conflict this whole time? Has it been a battleground for 8 years yet I'm just learning about it now? Or is it fabricated bull#### from Putin? Is there anything here?
__________________
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
Winston Churchill
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02-28-2022, 09:39 AM
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#1842
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame
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He also demanded all NATO military forces be moved back to Germany and a freeze of all future members into NATO. You know that's not gonna happen
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02-28-2022, 09:44 AM
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#1843
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
I apologize for quoting Russian sources, but I don't see it reported in the west, so I will
As per Kremlin official site, Putin just had talks with French president Macron. Putin demanded recognize Crimea as Russian and ensure Ukraine neutrality. It is explicitly said, that Putin did not demand for Donbass republics.
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Honestly, I could see Ukraine accepting this demand if it means survival, especially considering the west has largely abandoned Crimea as Ukrainian. Finland had to cede territory against the soviet union during the winter war and this allowed them to survive as a country while next to a giant. In the end, regardless of how poorly Russia is doing, the longer this goes the worse it gets for Ukraine, and Russia still has nukes which will continue to prevent European countries to formally engage.
This is likely the only scenario where Putin can declare a 'win'...but this type of concession considering what Putin was aiming for is an absolute total loss for Russia. Going further with the Ukraine invasion will only assure Russia's bankruptcy if it didn't already.
Sanctions are likely to remain and Russia's economy is done for a very long time. And Putin's time seem to be running out.
*Well just saw the actual demands. Demilitarization and 'denazification'? Yeah no.
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02-28-2022, 09:46 AM
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#1844
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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The idea that Putin could just walk away from this and remain in power after murdering and terrorizing all those civilians is thoroughly nauseating.
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02-28-2022, 09:46 AM
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#1845
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Austria, NOT Australia
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Demand unrealistic things, then justify further bombings with "we tried diplomacy!". Classic.
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02-28-2022, 09:48 AM
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#1846
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Normally, my desk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame
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I could see the first and third points getting more conversation. But, there's no way Ukraine will agree to denazification (they'd have to first admit this was actually a thing) or demilitarization.
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02-28-2022, 09:48 AM
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#1847
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Franchise Player
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Gemstones lighting on homes is becoming popular in my suburb and I think about 80% of them in my neighborhood have been turned into some combination of Yellow & Blue.
Including mine.
Glory to Ukraine
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02-28-2022, 09:50 AM
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#1848
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
The idea that Putin could just walk away from this and remain in power after murdering and terrorizing all those civilians is thoroughly nauseating.
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He is directly responsible for the complete economic collapse of Russia and has set back Russia to the 1800s (and not talking about his russian czar empire fantasy)
In a nuclear age, the only way that Putin falls is by his own people's hands. And he just gave them lots of reasons to do so.
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02-28-2022, 09:50 AM
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#1849
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Franchise Player
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The reality is that everyone's hand is forced here. Zelenskyy can't agree to give up any significant Ukrainian territory. Putin cannot just pack up the troops and go home tail between his legs, that would be ruinous for him. Even if he did, the rest of the world couldn't simply reverse the sanctions and military buildup that have resulted, he invaded a sovereign nation and killed civilians for no justifiable reason. The horse has left the barn.
I'd like to think that if they just ceded everything south of the Dnieper from Zaporizhzhia east that would do it, because I'd think that would probably do it from Putin's side of things, but I really doubt Zelenskyy is even open to considering that.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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02-28-2022, 09:52 AM
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#1850
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chingas
I don't know the details of what has been happening in the Donbass region at all. Has there really been constant conflict this whole time? Has it been a battleground for 8 years yet I'm just learning about it now? Or is it fabricated bull#### from Putin? Is there anything here?
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This isn't China trying to hide a genocide. Everyone in Ukraine has a cell phone. Any of what Putin is saying, were it true, would be very common knowledge. If anyone in Russia buys this line, I would suggest that Russia is very insulated in terms of information that they are allowed to see.
__________________
"By Grabthar's hammer ... what a savings."
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02-28-2022, 09:53 AM
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#1851
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Haifa, Israel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame
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Doesn't open for me. Could be that Twitter is banned now.
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02-28-2022, 09:54 AM
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#1852
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 Posted the 6 millionth post! |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
Doesn't open for me. Could be that Twitter is banned now.
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Pointman - can you use a VPN or VM to overcome the Twitter Russian IP block?
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02-28-2022, 09:57 AM
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#1853
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On your last nerve...:D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
Doesn't open for me. Could be that Twitter is banned now.
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I may have taken you too literally, thinking you couldn't see what was posted, hence this screenshot.
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02-28-2022, 09:57 AM
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#1854
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
Doesn't open for me. Could be that Twitter is banned now.
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As commented above, the missing demands are 'denazification' and 'demilitarization' of Ukraine. So basically non-starters. It's amusing that Putin chose to call Ukrainians nazis for some reason, but it does create a demand that is impossible to achieve, since it is not true.
__________________
"By Grabthar's hammer ... what a savings."
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02-28-2022, 09:58 AM
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#1855
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Calgary
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These talks between Russia and Ukraine seem like a massive stalling tactic by Russia for their supply lines to catch up. There won't really be any concessions either side can stomach and Russia/Belarus continue flooding troops/equipment in.
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02-28-2022, 09:58 AM
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#1856
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Haifa, Israel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour
I could see the first and third points getting more conversation. But, there's no way Ukraine will agree to denazification (they'd have to first admit this was actually a thing) or demilitarization.
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"Denazification and demilitarization" are official objectives of Putin's offensive. Those will be put in any requests and whatever the outcome will be, Putin would declare that those are achieved. His real demands are Crimea and not joining NATO.
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02-28-2022, 10:01 AM
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#1857
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameOn
These talks between Russia and Ukraine seem like a massive stalling tactic by Russia for their supply lines to catch up. There won't really be any concessions either side can stomach and Russia/Belarus continue flooding troops/equipment in.
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This is my fear also.
It needs to end now/soon or it will become much worse for all
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02-28-2022, 10:03 AM
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#1858
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointman
"Denazification and demilitarization" are official objectives of Putin's offensive. Those will be put in any requests and whatever the outcome will be, Putin would declare that those are achieved. His real demands are Crimea and not joining NATO.
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Ukraine will never agree to demilitarization, or whatever fabrication 'denazification' means.
Those are complete non-starters.
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02-28-2022, 10:05 AM
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#1859
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Participant  |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebot
Ukraine will never agree to demilitarization, or whatever fabrication 'denazification' means.
Those are complete non-starters.
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I think his point is just that Putin made up the nazification of Ukraine, he can make up that denazification is part of the resolution.
When has Putin been above lying to his own people en masse?
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02-28-2022, 10:06 AM
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#1860
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Haifa, Israel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnie
I may have taken you too literally, thinking you couldn't see what was posted, hence this screenshot.
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Thank you, now I can see it.
Those demands are fairly consistent with what he wanted from the start.
1. I hate annexation but letting Crimea go may be best for all involved. It probably should have been Russian all along.
2. De-de are just farce demands. Just build a couple of Eastern Orthodox churches and declare it achieved.
3. Some defensive pacts could be a reliable substitute for not being a member of NATO (see Israel)
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