Russia invades Ukraine

[afc wimbledon]

The fact that we are still getting lots of news out of the Ukraine means Russia has completely failed to supress its easiest command and control targets, the bloody great civilian cell towers and phone junctions, from a military point of view that is a staggering level of inability

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The UN was formed after WW2 to guard against future conflicts.

Since there haven’t been many large scale wars it has morphed into a self serving bureaucracy. It’s more concerned with sustainable development and social engineering now.

Zero threat to a dictator threatening its neighbour. NATO is probably the same.

Hey Bud we get it, you have an agenda.

How about you #### off with it and we discuss Russia's unprovoked War on the Ukraine.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Question... my understanding is that the pipeline that supplies much, if not all, of the energy from Russia to Europe (including Germany) runs through the Ukraine. Is that correct? If so, does it make any sense for the Ukranian military to blow up that pipeline and cut Russia off from its customers?

Again, I have no idea if this would be a terrible idea or just not feasible, but I am curious.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

When does DC expel Ovechkin?

The reports are saying the Ovechkin has requested more time before he responds to media requests.

Especially awkward for him as out of many Russian hockey players, he has one of the biggest histories of loyalty and fanboyism to Putin.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The fact that we are still getting lots of news out of the Ukraine means Russia has completely failed to supress its easiest command and control targets, the bloody great civilian cell towers and phone junctions, from a military point of view that is a staggering level of inability

There's a line of thinking out there that this was intentional to facilitate a "shock and awe" approach by letting Ukrainians see the fighting. So this may be a strategic error as opposed to a failure to execute.

Who knows which answer is right, it very well could be either.

edit: actually can't even say it's a strategic error I guess, we're less than 24 hours in and obviously people are fleeing.

[Bonded]

For all the talk of failure to prepare for this conflict from the West, what were the realistic options? Put the boots on the ground and help defend in advance of this attack and then really kick off a war with a potentially unhinged leader or give Ukraine weapons that could be seized and taken over by Russia?



The swift thing is interesting as well outside of the energy issues Germany would face, it could funnel money through China and crypto networks.



Lots of moving parts

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Goriders

The UN was formed after WW2 to guard against future conflicts.

Since there haven’t been many large scale wars it has morphed into a self serving bureaucracy. It’s more concerned with sustainable development and social engineering now.

Zero threat to a dictator threatening its neighbour. NATO is probably the same.

The problem is that WWII and the lessons we learned from it faded into generational memory.

The lesson wasn't learned to the point they would resound in our bones.

We are more akin to the Chamberlain era right now where the world had assumed that Hitler/Putin could be appeased and his moves for lebenstraum (living space) predicated on nonsense about protecting German speaking people in other countries (Russian minorities in the two Ukranian regions that Putin recognized independence for) were all from the same playbook.

This is a dangerous game and we are seeing the first major modern 21st century warfare between 1st world nations play out.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Question... my understanding is that the pipeline that supplies much, if not all, of the energy from Russia to Europe (including Germany) runs through the Ukraine. Is that correct? If so, does it make any sense for the Ukranian military to blow up that pipeline and cut Russia off from its customers?

Again, I have no idea if this would be a terrible idea or just not feasible, but I am curious.

There are I believe pipelines that go directly from Russia to Europe and I believe some that go through Ukraine as well. I am not the expert.

The issue is that Europe still needs it's energy from some source and a significant source is Russia and that's an issue. Even the new pipeline approval that was part of the sanctions will probably need to be lifted at some point in the future.

[djsFlames]

Yeah I don't want this evolving into a UN/beaurocracy thread either.

Stay on subject guys, we can do it.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Question... my understanding is that the pipeline that supplies much, if not all, of the energy from Russia to Europe (including Germany) runs through the Ukraine. Is that correct? If so, does it make any sense for the Ukranian military to blow up that pipeline and cut Russia off from its customers?

Again, I have no idea if this would be a terrible idea or just not feasible, but I am curious.

Lol seems crazy but that might get Germany on board with the toughest sanctions

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think it's going to be over by Sunday, myself.

NSFW!

[SebC]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Question... my understanding is that the pipeline that supplies much, if not all, of the energy from Russia to Europe (including Germany) runs through the Ukraine. Is that correct? If so, does it make any sense for the Ukranian military to blow up that pipeline and cut Russia off from its customers?

Again, I have no idea if this would be a terrible idea or just not feasible, but I am curious.

I was thinking about this as well. Unfortunately, a pragmatist consumer of Russian gas might evaluate the problem and decide the best way to restore the pipeline is to support Russian efforts.

[Huntingwhale]

Very strange, but the 3 Russian news channels I have on my digital TV package have all been disconnected. Mind you, they are all propaganda channels (RT included), so I'm not really upset. But just...strange. Only those 3. I have never heard of that happening before. Maybe the Polish gov has had enough of the BS.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by curves2000

The issue is that Europe still needs it's energy from some source and a significant source is Russia and that's an issue. Even the new pipeline approval that was part of the sanctions will probably need to be lifted at some point in the future.

Right, which is why the EU isn't going to stop buying their energy, but if you're a Ukranian... why do you care? Why not just say damn the torpedoes? You can hurt Russia in a way they'll feel by cutting off part of their economic engine - if it hurts Germany at the same time, well, sorry, we're fighting for our country over here, we're not terribly worried about you.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by peter12

Throw me increasingly in the skeptical camp.

Originally Posted by peter12

I think it's going to be over by Sunday, myself.

You also thought Putin wouldn't invade though.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

You also thought Putin wouldn't invade though.

Yeah, I was totally wrong. I was pretty certain that Russia would be pursuing a limited, asymmetrical war, not full-scale invasion.

That said, even though these first 24 hours have been nuts, it is more likely to be a fairly limited engagement. Next couple of days will be decisive.

Just to be clear, one assumption didn't follow the other here. Now that Russia appears to have thrown its full weight at Ukraine, I expect - given the discrepancy in force capabilities - for it to be over very quickly.

But who knows? Maybe Ukraine will be able to bring some of their new Javelin ATGMs to bear against those huge Russian tank columns.

[WCW Nitro]

Can someone explain one thing to me? One of the grievances Russia has is that it doesn't want Nato encroaching on this border via Ukraine, but if they capture Ukraine, they will be surrounded by NAto countries. So why does this make strategic sense for them, unless the reasoning is that it brings Russia into the heart of Europe and thus balances out.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by peter12

How?

The Budapest Memorandum was supposed to secure Ukraine for it denuclearizing. Now, Russia gets to use nuclear threats to get away with invading Ukraine. My ass would be very chapped.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Right, which is why the EU isn't going to stop buying their energy, but if you're a Ukranian... why do you care? Why not just say damn the torpedoes? You can hurt Russia in a way they'll feel by cutting off part of their economic engine - if it hurts Germany at the same time, well, sorry, we're fighting for our country over here, we're not terribly worried about you.

Practically and strategically it would accomplish what you are saying, realistically it would enrage and sandwich Ukraine between your enemies and your supposed friends.

Ukraine really is getting the short end of the stick here and it's a sad disaster.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Can someone explain one thing to me? One of the grievances Russia has is that it doesn't want Nato encroaching on this border via Ukraine, but if they capture Ukraine, they will be surrounded by NAto countries. So why does this make strategic sense for them, unless the reasoning is that it brings Russia into the heart of Europe and thus balances out.

I think it's been made pretty clear that the goal of actually occupying the entire country is not commensurate with the size and capabilities of the forces deployed.