[News] Jack Eichel Surgery And Comeback Thread

[Jiri Hrdina]

Maybe he would have played a game or two as a warmup. That's it.
His recovery matched the expected length of time.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think they had a different plan in mind for who they would move, potentially delaying activating Eichel until that move was made. So they are fortunate that Stone got injured, but I just don't buy that a guy like Stone is going to exaggerate his injury.

I think the NHL needs to address the broader loop hole. But I don't buy into the nonsense that guys are being kept on IR longer than they should.

I don't think any of the players are faking injuries. But I 100% think that guys are being kept on IR longer than they should.

It is an easy loop hole to exploit, and no veteran player is going to complain about missing 20 + games during the regular season.

[djsFlames]

Will eat my foot if he's not back miraculously in early May.

Those defending and giving the benefit of the doubt are out to ####ing lunch.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I don't think any of the players are faking injuries. But I 100% think that guys are being kept on IR longer than they should.

It is an easy loop hole to exploit, and no veteran player is going to complain about missing 20 + games during the regular season.

and getting paid their full salary, notice its only teams with playoffs basically in the bag

[Jiri Hrdina]

I would suggest then that it needs to be proven. That's where the burden sits.
I see no actual evidence.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Vegas should lose their ‘23 1st round pick for for this.

For what? The only thing they have done wrong is... ??? I haven't seen them break any rules.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would suggest then that it needs to be proven. That's where the burden sits.
I see no actual evidence.

I suppose that the evidence is the pattern. Every year some teams inflate their cap space with LTIR before the playoffs. Alternatively Some teams like the Leafs or the Blackhawks make cap disappear in the long term using LTIR.

This isn't cheating, it is just a commonly known exploit and it is going to keep happening until the NHL does something about it.

I am not suggesting their is an easy fix, but I would say that only a stupid GM wouldn't be using the LTIR to their advantage when ever they can.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Buff

For what? The only thing they have done wrong is... ??? I haven't seen them break any rules.

That's exactly the problem. This doesn't break the rules. So long as the Dr doesn't clear a player to play. You know the Dr who is paid by the team.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

That's exactly the problem. This doesn't break the rules. So long as the Dr doesn't clear a player to play. You know the Dr who is paid by the team.

If the NHL suspects this type of stuff is happening they get their doctors to confirm the legitimacy of the injury. We know this happened to the Flames when Rhett Warrener was put on LTIR many years ago, he even said so himself.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Buff

If the NHL suspects this type of stuff is happening they get their doctors to confirm the legitimacy of the injury. We know this happened to the Flames when Rhett Warrener was put on LTIR many years ago, he even said so himself.

There is an article from April 2021 that said the NHL is looking into this exploitation more seriously. I have no doubt that there is a mechanism in place to avoid this sort of exploitation, but what constitutes an injury is subjective. How do you prove that player isn't inured when it is a bad back?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by mile

https://twitter.com/user/status/1493317343744770052

Seeing 6 doctors and all the test he has undergone to me is saying something isn't right. If he is going through multiple lingering back issues then I think that is the real story here.

That sure seems like a lot of medical personnel and tests to go through for it to be nothing. It is also a lot of documentation and finding to try and fake your way through it for some cap relief.

[GioforPM]

Agreed that it’s super hard to prove. It’s just that this case is way more suspect even than Kucherov. I mean, Kucherov had actual surgery, with an actual estimated time of recovery that was pretty much where he ended up. And the only player TBL signed was David Savard well after the LTIR was invoked (they did retain some players they’d have had to trade I suppose). In this case you have a trade for a $10M player with no cap room at the time and a LTIR the day before he plays with no actual surgery scheduled.

LTIR was intended to aid a team that suffered a big loss of a player to go and find a replacement without breaching the CBA. This is not the intended use.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Seeing 6 doctors and all the test he has undergone to me is saying something isn't right. If he is going through multiple lingering back issues then I think that is the real story here.

That sure seems like a lot of medical personnel and tests to go through for it to be nothing. It is also a lot of documentation and finding to try and fake your way through it for some cap relief.

It's also a lot of personnel and tests to go through while still going out and playing 20 mins a night in the NHL.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Buff

If the NHL suspects this type of stuff is happening they get their doctors to confirm the legitimacy of the injury. We know this happened to the Flames when Rhett Warrener was put on LTIR many years ago, he even said so himself.

No doctor is going to force a player to play if they insist that their back/neck/head hurts. They could run every test imaginable, find nothing, and any doctor would still lean to the side of caution and put the player on LTIR. What are they going to do? Say you’re faking it and make them get back out there?

I agree that Stone likely has some level of injury/discomfort but I would bet that the length of his status on LTIR is not going to be dictated by his injury or recovery but by how it helps the team manage the cap.

There is so much grey area in the use of LTIR that it lends itself to teams taking advantage of it to the point that they are circumventing the cap.

As for those that doubt a player like Stone would choose to sit out rather than play… I think lots of guys would be willing to do it for the sake of the team. I’ll put out this potential scenario that I suggested a few weeks ago would happen:

Management: “Hey Mark, heard you were getting looked at from the Doc. How are you feeling?”

Stone: “Ok. The same old back pain I’ve been fighting for a few years now.”

Management: “Well as you know we’re in a bit of a tight bind with the salary cap. We think this team has what it takes to go all the way this year. But either way, we’re going to have to make some tough choices in the offseason. Doubt we’ll be able to keep this team as deep as it is right now so this might be the best shot we get. So I want to make sure everyone is 100% for playoffs. Don’t want to have to trade a bunch of guys to make room for eichel only to have some of our other top guys make their injuries worse and be at 80% after we’ve made some trades. So what I’m saying is, if you’re feeling any discomfort at all, I think we should rest you up for a while to make sure you’re 100%. You’re a leader for this team so I know you’d hate to lose some of the other important guys to trades when we’re so close to being as good as we can be. I hope you won’t let the guys down by playing through anything.”

Stone: “Well I’ve played through it before and been fine but if it means keeping our team together and giving us a shot at the cup, I’m willing to rest up.”

Management: “You’re a great leader for us, Mark. We’re going to need everything you’ve got come playoffs. Just let the doctor know you feel you need the rest and we can get the paperwork started.”


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[Roof-Daddy]

Hahahaha

What a shocking turn of events this is.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

There is an article from April 2021 that said the NHL is looking into this exploitation more seriously. I have no doubt that there is a mechanism in place to avoid this sort of exploitation, but what constitutes an injury is subjective. How do you prove that player isn't inured when it is a bad back?

You are right, if he says he has a sore back, no doctor in their right mind is going to say he should return to play before he feels he is up to it.

So there's the problem, eligibility for LTIR is based almost entirely on subjective information that can easily be manipulated to suit the franchise's needs. So we need to make the salary cap mean something in the playoffs.

It shouldn't be too hard. Divide every player's annual cap hit by 365. It doesn't have to be their actual salary, just like cap hit for back-diving contracts isn't based on actual salary in any one year of the contract. Tthis gets around the fact that players are not on their individual contracts during the playoffs. Divide the salary cap by 365. Then, for every game day, regular season or playoffs, no team can dress a roster with a total daily cap hit of more than 1/365 of the annual salary cap.

Of course, the downside of this is that teams will not be able to accumulate cap space during the regular season and use that for big trade deadline acquisitions, so more deals will have to have similar cap hits going both ways and/or salary retention. On the other hand, this will mean that the quest for the Cup will be much more wide open, with anyone making the playoffs having a chance to win it all, rather than having a few heavily favoured stacked teams that exploited the system by possibly shady means in order to build lineups that nobody else could match.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Maybe he would have played a game or two as a warmup. That's it.
His recovery matched the expected length of time.

Except they delayed his surgery until December to ensure the timelines made sense. How lucky they didn't realize until December that rehab wasn't working and he needed surgery.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Except they delayed his surgery until December to ensure the timelines made sense. How lucky they didn't realize until December that rehab wasn't working and he needed surgery.

I just don't think a player would buy into that plan unless there was a legitimate chance the rehab could work. In which case most players will opt for rehab for sure.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So he's faking the injury? Is that what people are saying?

I think he's signed his last big contract, he's not chasing any career stats and his only goal left is likely to win the cup. Take a few months off to rest a nagging injury? Come back with a $90mil team in an $80mil league for playoffs? Sounds good.

With all the crazy stuff players do to win I'm surprised people think a player wouldn't do this.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by stemit14

No doctor is going to force a player to play if they insist that their back/neck/head hurts. They could run every test imaginable, find nothing, and any doctor would still lean to the side of caution and put the player on LTIR. What are they going to do? Say you’re faking it and make them get back out there?

I agree that Stone likely has some level of injury/discomfort but I would bet that the length of his status on LTIR is not going to be dictated by his injury or recovery but by how it helps the team manage the cap.

There is so much grey area in the use of LTIR that it lends itself to teams taking advantage of it to the point that they are circumventing the cap.

As for those that doubt a player like Stone would choose to sit out rather than play… I think lots of guys would be willing to do it for the sake of the team. I’ll put out this potential scenario that I suggested a few weeks ago would happen:

Management: “Hey Mark, heard you were getting looked at from the Doc. How are you feeling?”

Stone: “Ok. The same old back pain I’ve been fighting for a few years now.”

Management: “Well as you know we’re in a bit of a tight bind with the salary cap. We think this team has what it takes to go all the way this year. But either way, we’re going to have to make some tough choices in the offseason. Doubt we’ll be able to keep this team as deep as it is right now so this might be the best shot we get. So I want to make sure everyone is 100% for playoffs. Don’t want to have to trade a bunch of guys to make room for eichel only to have some of our other top guys make their injuries worse and be at 80% after we’ve made some trades. So what I’m saying is, if you’re feeling any discomfort at all, I think we should rest you up for a while to make sure you’re 100%. You’re a leader for this team so I know you’d hate to lose some of the other important guys to trades when we’re so close to being as good as we can be. I hope you won’t let the guys down by playing through anything.”

Stone: “Well I’ve played through it before and been fine but if it means keeping our team together and giving us a shot at the cup, I’m willing to rest up.”

Management: “You’re a great leader for us, Mark. We’re going to need everything you’ve got come playoffs. Just let the doctor know you feel you need the rest and we can get the paperwork started.”


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It is crazy to suggest that a competitive player is going to sit out a long period of time because his team wants him to do so just for salary cap purposes. Stone is a competitor and a leader. He will want to be playing and competing and leading by example. The type of player who will sit out when they think they can play are not the player you win games with. You win games with Stone. The players who would rather sit at home and not play are likely to be extremely rare in the NHL.