SAIT vs University for Computer Career

[OldDutch]

For what it's worth. I went to to MRC (now MRU) and took Computer Information Systems. I started in the late 90s as an aimless kid who went to college cause all my friends went to U of C and took business and I didn't want to be a "loser" (that was the mindset in my group of friends) and work with only HS. I also loved programming and saw it frankly as the only thing I could do in post-secondary, and get a job that also made good money (I liked money too).

Honestly I struggled hard. I was a solid average student in high school. I failed C++ a couple of times. I left MRC, took a year off, worked in a tech job, and came back. Struggled some more on my second stint. If I went to U of C I would have dropped out for sure.

Yet I passed, with a solid B- average, and lots of practical skills like .NET 1.0 which no one had then. It was enough to get my first post grad job.

However, a funny thing happened when I started working. I had two skills I didn't even know fully. I work my tail off, and I am extremely good with people. Nothing related to technology only. I love business as much as tech.

Around 13 years ago, my career really took off. I was a person who could bring tech and business together. I just needed to get that paper to get me the experience to show companies what I could do. Now I feel amongst that same group of friends, that I am at the same earnings level, or likely higher than some of them. Which I deep down am proud of, as I was known as low achiever back in the day.

If you son is unmotivated, I was too. I say let him go and try. The point may not be the programming/tech degree. He may hustle hard, and get further than he ever thought possible. Some days I am not sure how I am having the career I have had, but the degree (not school) partly unlocked that.

Last, I am totally open to this if you or your son want to chat just PM me. I am quite passionate about helping younger people in the spot I was know what can be on the other side, and what it took me to get there. Either way good luck to your son and am rooting for him.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by photon

He wants to go into "something computers", he does seem to like coding as he'll do it as a hobby sometimes.

This reminds me of how after 4 years of Bachelors degree studies in Graphic Design, 2 years of Masters degrees studies in Graphic Design, and several jobs in the field of Graphic Design... for the decade of my career I was still introduced to any acquaintance by my mom with "This is Tom, he works with computers".

[GreenLantern2814]

Has your son been evaluated for ADHD?

I only ask because I went to university unmotivated and unsure of what I wanted to do with my life, and fifteen years later I found out I had ADHD, and it explained virtually everything that had been going wrong in my life.

I hadn’t written anything in probably 5 years, and within 3 weeks of being on medication, I wrote and rewrote a 5000 word short story, and I literally couldn’t do that before.

Good luck to your son.

[photon]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Has your son been evaluated for ADHD?

I only ask because I went to university unmotivated and unsure of what I wanted to do with my life, and fifteen years later I found out I had ADHD, and it explained virtually everything that had been going wrong in my life.

Yup he was diagnosed early on for both ADD (no H in his case) as well as Aspergers (which doesn't exist as an official diagnoses anymore, just Autism Spectrum Disorder now).

Middle school was really rough for him, but he really grew after that (he won an award for most improved student in his Jr. High).

I tend to think his motivation state isn't atypical for kids his age; his cousin is a year older and still trying to decide what to do

[Stampede2TheCup]

I sort of presume you know this is, but the tough part with the question is there is no easy answer. I have a Computer Science degree BSc. 20 years ago and am currently studying at a tech institute like SAIT. I left the industry for quite a while but I’m just looking to get back in now. I have basically been thinking about this question for 25+ years and I think even if I had lunch with you and your son I might not even be able to tell you which route is best. Having said that, there are certain people that certainly will thrive better on one side or the other so it’s great that you are seeking information and opinions on this to help set him on his path!

If I had to do it all over again myself, I’d still do University. However, I would probably actually recommend tech school for more than half of the people getting into the field.

I can only speak about my realm of software development and data stuff but of course there are other realms of careers that work with computers. I would say first that when looking at getting into any of these sort of jobs, someone going into this area should really be a curious mind.

It really takes a lifelong learner to constantly keep up. I mean you can go to tech school and then cruise through a mediocre career if you’re not into self learning. But then you will basically end up being that old weirdly dressed guy at the bottom of the software development pay scale because he just loves programming in something like outdated like COBOL.

Your son doesn’t necessarily need the direction or drive right now. I was pretty lazy and hardly tried at high school because I found it boring. But I worked my tail off in university and absolutely loved school even though it was harder and more stressful. I think the important thing is to have the curious mind that is interested in science.

I don’t think your thinking on universities is totally outdated but I do think there has been a sizeable shift over the last couple decades to where now a tech institute degree is a viable path for a flourishing career for a lot more people. The reason for this I think has been that software development tools and platforms have become so much more advanced now.

Uni vs tech school is a question of theory-heavy vs tools-heavy education. Nowadays there are a LOT more advanced software development tools that are heavily used and in demand. Many more university students actually have more of a disadvantage entering the job market because those sorts of tools are required or preferred for far more entry level jobs now.

On the other hand there will still always be plenty of jobs that require the theoretical background of university. For example, Data Science, other cutting edge type of stuff that tends to be bigger companies like Google, Amazon, etc, and also even the developers who come up with the more advanced software development tools that everyone else uses.

I have worked with enough people with both backgrounds to confidently say that a university background will serve most programmers every day or week of their career, but at the same time there is just so much demand for jobs out there and some people can still advance and do well in a lot of situations even if their theoretical background is a little lacking.

Basically having a good theoretical background has to be weighed against paying boatloads of money and spending a couple extra years to take humanities courses and even some computer science courses that won’t be directly applicable to many IT jobs out there at all, as well as the desire and ability to get through University.

Here are some questions you can ask yourself to help you weigh both sides.

Is he good at school? Does he enjoy science and math classes? Enjoy any other classes? Extroverted? A big thinker/dreamer? Curious about the world? Good at working/studying self-directed or will he at least buckle down and figure it out? (This one is huge for Uni success.)

Score points for University working well for him for all “yes” answers and points for tech school for all “no” answers.

Also here’s a philisophical question - do you want to suit his personality in school or help broaden his horizons? I felt a bit lost and out of place in university because of the size of it if I’m being honest, but I really think it was actually a really good life experience for me. Uni sort of feels like trial by fire - like being left alone in the woods. For some people it’s a really good thing but for others maybe not so much.

And one more random thought. Is he into gaming? There are video game development specific degrees and if I were a father I would not be against it as a career path as long as my hypothetical son was truly interested in making games and not just playing them! Maybe it’s one you can just keep it in your back pocket in case he tries one of the other routes and wants to rage quit after a year. I think a year at a technical Institute or university would actually probably be good to for somebody who wanted to get into gaming development.

Anyway, if anyone but Photon is reading this, then bless your soul and I might recommend this as a career for you. If you can get through reading this, you can get through the boring dry parts of this schooling and career!

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by photon

My son is graduating high school and he's been looking at where we wants to go into post secondary education in the fall.

His friends seem to be going to SAIT they say so he was thinking of doing the same.

He wants to go into "something computers", he does seem to like coding as he'll do it as a hobby sometimes.

We had a bit of a discussion about it but my thoughts could be pretty outdated so I'd like to get some input.

I told him SAIT I'm sure has some good programs however they're all pretty narrow, focused on a specific type of job. They may be good at getting you a job (and I'm not sure if they are, is a SAIT grad in demand?).

While if he did, for example, a computer science degree at a university that will give a far broader education, getting into all kinds of different things both computer and other.

It seems to me someone with a B.Sc. has a higher potential and more flexibility. Not to mention it's required if he wanted to progress higher towards a doctorate.

On the flip side university can be tough.

He's not very self motivated and doesn't have a clear focus on what he wants to do, which also leans me towards encouraging university which will have exposure to all kinds of different things vs a very focus program.

Or is my thinking old and outdated? Maybe everyone just takes some online courses or teaches themselves, gets good, and gets out there? I mean that's how I do it now but I started out with a B.Sc. and I feel it had lots of value.

In case it didn’t come through clearly enough in my first post, I completely agree with the bolded. It’s just that the field has now become SO broad that I think it’s it’s not necessarily always so bad to be in a narrowly focused area. Eventually you will likely end up there anyway. The trick with choosing a narrowly focused approach is to pick the right one early on, and that can be tricky of course. University does help one prepare a bit better for the shifts and evolutions in an IT career, but they can still be easy or challenging from both paths.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by photon

Yup he was diagnosed early on for both ADD (no H in his case) as well as Aspergers (which doesn't exist as an official diagnoses anymore, just Autism Spectrum Disorder now).

Middle school was really rough for him, but he really grew after that (he won an award for most improved student in his Jr. High).

I tend to think his motivation state isn't atypical for kids his age; his cousin is a year older and still trying to decide what to do

100% this. I would say most every college bound teenager floats the whole gap year idea at some point. Why not?

I'd for sure be telling him how much fun college can be.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Stampede2TheCup

And one more random thought. Is he into gaming? There are video game development specific degrees and if I were a father I would not be against it as a career path as long as my hypothetical son was truly interested in making games and not just playing them! Maybe it’s one you can just keep it in your back pocket in case he tries one of the other routes and wants to rage quit after a year. I think a year at a technical Institute or university would actually probably be good to for somebody who wanted to get into gaming development.

Hah he's definitely showed interest in game development and has said that'd be a job he might like, and he's made a few games himself too both in Unity for school and on his own in Javascript.

And done work in Minecraft too, which being a crusty old Java developer myself is the most impressive since anytime I look at the build tooling around Mincraft I wonder that anyone can get anything done (at least that's how it used to be anyway).

Just not sure how realistic it is to get a game development job but he does like math and science and does "check all the boxes" for interest to get into that. Just not sure if there's anything local that offers that.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by photon

My son is graduating high school and he's been looking at where we wants to go into post secondary education in the fall.

His friends seem to be going to SAIT they say so he was thinking of doing the same.

He wants to go into "something computers", he does seem to like coding as he'll do it as a hobby sometimes.

We had a bit of a discussion about it but my thoughts could be pretty outdated so I'd like to get some input.

I told him SAIT I'm sure has some good programs however they're all pretty narrow, focused on a specific type of job. They may be good at getting you a job (and I'm not sure if they are, is a SAIT grad in demand?).

While if he did, for example, a computer science degree at a university that will give a far broader education, getting into all kinds of different things both computer and other.

It seems to me someone with a B.Sc. has a higher potential and more flexibility. Not to mention it's required if he wanted to progress higher towards a doctorate.

On the flip side university can be tough.

He's not very self motivated and doesn't have a clear focus on what he wants to do, which also leans me towards encouraging university which will have exposure to all kinds of different things vs a very focus program.

Or is my thinking old and outdated? Maybe everyone just takes some online courses or teaches themselves, gets good, and gets out there? I mean that's how I do it now but I started out with a B.Sc. and I feel it had lots of value.

I feel like you and I are around the same age and I too would value a university degree higher than one from SAIT. The key for me is options, and a uni degree is often required for entry into some firms (consulting as an example). If coding is your son's interest, he'll find work easily. Also, post secondary will teach him the fundamentals (both institutions), once he's working, he'll learn all the new languages and technology through training (external and internal through work).

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Education is highly personal, so it's tough to say in general what advise I'd give your son. Especially where computer programming isn't my thing.

In general, SAIT to start is a great idea, especially if credits can be transfered to U of C if that becomes the desire.

I'm also partial to SAIT as I know the bar manager there. If your son does to go SAIT and wants a part time job shoot me a PM.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Made me think of something a friend at Shopify passed on

https://devdegree.ca/


Pretty sure you can do it all remote.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by photon

Hah he's definitely showed interest in game development and has said that'd be a job he might like, and he's made a few games himself too both in Unity for school and on his own in Javascript.

And done work in Minecraft too, which being a crusty old Java developer myself is the most impressive since anytime I look at the build tooling around Mincraft I wonder that anyone can get anything done (at least that's how it used to be anyway).

Just not sure how realistic it is to get a game development job but he does like math and science and does "check all the boxes" for interest to get into that. Just not sure if there's anything local that offers that.

Bow Valley's new Centre for Entertainment Arts has a Game Development diploma program: https://bowvalleycollege.ca/programs...me-development

[photon]

How reputable is Bow Valley?

[getbak]

The Centre for Entertainment Arts is new at BVC.

I believe the first class was supposed to start in January, but I don't know if that got pushed back. It's affiliated with a similar institution in Vancouver and will be using the same curriculum as the CEA in Vancouver.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by photon

Hah he's definitely showed interest in game development and has said that'd be a job he might like, and he's made a few games himself too both in Unity for school and on his own in Javascript.

And done work in Minecraft too, which being a crusty old Java developer myself is the most impressive since anytime I look at the build tooling around Mincraft I wonder that anyone can get anything done (at least that's how it used to be anyway).

Just not sure how realistic it is to get a game development job but he does like math and science and does "check all the boxes" for interest to get into that. Just not sure if there's anything local that offers that.

I was like your son when I was in high school, wanted to do coding and be a game developer. Enrolled in the Computer Science course at SAIT but it wasn't very long into the first semester that I realized coding wasn't for me. I was much better at the hardware side of things, so I dropped out of that course and went into Computer Engineering instead (thankfully several classes were transferrable so the first semester wasn't a total waste). From my professional experience though, a diploma or degree is only important for that first foot in the door, and sometimes not even then. Once you're in the IT field experience and certifications are way more important than any post-secondary schooling. And I'm not sure about UoC, but I know there are several programs at SAIT that will give you full certifications in a specific field

Personally, I would also heavily dissuade anyone from trying to get into game development. It's an extremely competitive field, and as a result every game company on the planet uses that as leverage to churn and burn through developers like crazy. It's a very unhealthy profession to be in at the moment. If he were to take some kind of course revolving around DevOps though (straddling the development and infrastructure worlds) he'd be able to make bank pretty quickly if he's talented

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I was like your son when I was in high school, wanted to do coding and be a game developer. Enrolled in the Computer Science course at SAIT but it wasn't very long into the first semester that I realized coding wasn't for me. I was much better at the hardware side of things, so I dropped out of that course and went into Computer Engineering instead (thankfully several classes were transferrable so the first semester wasn't a total waste). From my professional experience though, a diploma or degree is only important for that first foot in the door, and sometimes not even then. Once you're in the IT field experience and certifications are way more important than any post-secondary schooling. And I'm not sure about UoC, but I know there are several programs at SAIT that will give you full certifications in a specific field

Personally, I would also heavily dissuade anyone from trying to get into game development. It's an extremely competitive field, and as a result every game company on the planet uses that as leverage to churn and burn through developers like crazy. It's a very unhealthy profession to be in at the moment. If he were to take some kind of course revolving around DevOps though (straddling the development and infrastructure worlds) he'd be able to make bank pretty quickly if he's talented

I’m glad you responded here. I had come in to do a follow up response but you definitely seem to know more about the gaming development job market than me.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Stampede2TheCup

I’m glad you responded here. I had come in to do a follow up response but you definitely seem to know more about the gaming development job market than me.

Well I don't have any first hand knowledge, but there are countless stories of developers burning out due to crunch time, where they work from 80-100 hours a week with no OT

https://www.makeuseof.com/crunch-culture-video-games/

Right now the only people who seem to enjoy making games are the small indie developers, though that usually means they have to have another job as their primary income

[photon]

I did mention to him that there's not that many game dev jobs in Calgary either so he'd probably have to either work remote or move somewhere, and he didn't much like that idea. But yeah that's a super good point. I'd rather like my job rather than like the idea of my job.

Crunch culture for devs does exist outside of video games too but I've managed to avoid it for the most part. But I've known people and seen it on other teams. No thanks.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

I did mention to him that there's not that many game dev jobs in Calgary either so he'd probably have to either work remote or move somewhere, and he didn't much like that idea. But yeah that's a super good point. I'd rather like my job rather than like the idea of my job.

Crunch culture for devs does exist outside of video games too but I've managed to avoid it for the most part. But I've known people and seen it on other teams. No thanks.

Game dev is sort of like the out-of-work Hollywood actor version of software development. A lot of people go into fashionable game dev programs at small schools trying to grow their revenue, all whilst pursuing what they think will be glamor, glitz, and fun but the reality is rarely like that at all. There is indeed the crunch and a high level of job competition from creatives that are trying to turn their hobbies into a career.

There are a lot of people going into game dev because they are interested in it as a hobby and that's possibly the wrong reason to get into software development.

I have relatives at Bioware up in Edmonton and I work in IT management here in Calgary. I would advise people to become more a full stack developer who can ply their trade in any business around the world because that demand and variety will always be there.

I would stress again that software dev/dev ops is only a fraction of what IT is. There is a whole world of operational IT like infrastructure, networking, databases, cybersecurity, business systems, business intelligence, cloud architecture, tech sales & marketing, etc. I guess step one is define what you mean by "computer career".

[afc wimbledon]

From what I can pick up from my code monkey mates and a few ex foster kids (especially the foster kids!!) the idea that because you like playing games doesnt have any bearing on the coding for the games, code is code, if you like solving problems then solving them for a game or a point of sale till program is little different, one of my old kids put it well, liking skateboarding doesnt mean becoming a carpenter and building a skate ramp is any different to building a house, better to make a #### load of cash so you can buy more games in the end