[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t think there’s this big difference that you believe there is.

Well, I don't spend much time down there so my understanding is just from reading. But its always seemed that America swings harder and dreams bigger at entertainment and shopping than Canada. Definitely could be wrong.

[powderjunkie]

So we are all in agreement, the Flames will clean up the contamination beneath and play out of North Hill Mall?

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You’re right. I’m sure if I came back the following week all those empty spaces would have tenants and the quality of the other stores and foot traffic would be entirely different.

Pretty sure my experience is indicative of the decline of the supersized suburban mall in the US. There is no shortage of data that supports this.

Perhaps I just meant that one mall isn't necessarily illustrative of the entire continent. I don't necessarily disagree with your premise (b&m shopping is in decline)...but a single anecdotal experience is a weird way to support that argument.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So we are all in agreement, the Flames will clean up the contamination beneath and play out of North Hill Mall?




Perhaps I just meant that one mall isn't necessarily illustrative of the entire continent. I don't necessarily disagree with your premise (b&m shopping is in decline)...but a single anecdotal experience is a weird way to support that argument.

I was simply sharing a personal experience which seemed to be consistent with the overall move away huge suburban malls. Certainly didn't intend to suggest that my experience was the sole basis for any conclusion but isn't it still relevant?

From what others are saying, it sure seems like the mall scene in Calgary is thriving so there's that.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So we are all in agreement, the Flames will clean up the contamination beneath and play out of North Hill Mall?

Maybe the city can scrap that Northland Mall development plan and build a new rink there. Get rid of VW and the professional building but they might have to build a new train stop. I could easily walk to the games and if they built a decent entertainment district with it I would make that my go to hangout with my buddies.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Maybe the city can scrap that Northland Mall development plan and build a new rink there. Get rid of VW and the professional building but they might have to build a new train stop. I could easily walk to the games and if they built a decent entertainment district with it I would make that my go to hangout with my buddies.

LOL, City has nothing to do with the Northland Mall project.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by flambers

LOL, City has nothing to do with the Northland Mall project.

They can pull the development plan though and kill the existing project.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

They can pull the development plan though and kill the existing project.

For the construction already underway, DP is approved

Good luck pulling the permit

[powderjunkie]

It's fun to speculate about possible locations, but to reiterate: the location isn't the problem. Land value isn't even included in the deal. Any idea that requires land to be acquired is instantly more expensive (unless someone is crazy enough to trade their land for the Saddledome land which is an enclave of the Stampede.


The landswap I'd love to see is the Remington Lot (aka Jeff Davison Innovation Centre (JDI)) for the bus barns land immediately to the east.

Bus Barns are riverfront without any rail sidings and more desirable for a lot of potential developments (which is one of the parcels CSEC got first option on at 'market value' through the original deal...I have major concerns about how 'market value' would be determined, but I digress).

The JDI probably is less desirable for general development (just follow the 10 ave corridor west...it's not bad, but everything is a bit limited by backing onto CP tracks).

This block would be:
- 1 short block closer to green line station (negligible distance, but you'd eliminate any pedestrians having to cross 12 ave)
- nearly identical walking distance to City Hall Station (Red AND Blue lines) as OG deal site will be to Stampede Station (both are about 450 meters)
- access and egress can occur on both sides of the CP line (existing city parkades on north side; Stampede lots to south)
- could build both green line station and 5th St SE underpass in conjunction with the project (underpass could be a bit cheaper by omitting any pedestrian ROW, as the arena design would achieve a massive pedestrian overpass over the tracks (ie. a parkade on the north side of the tracks that links with the arena on the south side)

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

They can pull the development plan though and kill the existing project.

Lol are you from Venezuela by chance? City would get sued up the @ss if they tried to pull all that off.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

Lol are you from Venezuela by chance? City would get sued up the @ss if they tried to pull all that off.

I laughed at this. Great Chavez reference.

[Cappy]

Outlet malls are notorious for producing vastly inferior products at higher markups than their traditional clothing lines. The worst part is they are the fastest growing retail market. We as humans are truly duped

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Kiprusoff? Weren't the players always talking about how he lived down in the Okotoks/DeWinton area? I think I even saw a piece on him after he retired, fishing down there and talking about he liked the area.

He lived in Sharp Hill at one time

Those places you mentioned are even further to the dome

[Goriders]

Missed this thread for a bit. Are the Flames building a mall now?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Missed this thread for a bit. Are the Flames building a mall now?

A Flames outlet mall.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t think there’s this big difference that you believe there is.

I think Canadians and Americans are probably equally addicted to shopping. But the US capital markets have funded a lot more malls. So the shopping is diluted among more places, which makes the Canadian ones more successful on average.

The US has 40% more retail square footage than Canada per person.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...20respectively.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think Canadians and Americans are probably equally addicted to shopping. But the US capital markets have funded a lot more malls. So the shopping is diluted among more places, which makes the Canadian ones more successful on average.

The US has 40% more retail square footage than Canada per person.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...20respectively.

This certainly explains the relative emptiness of US malls compared to say Calgary. Every US city I have lived in seems to have its share of ghost malls, even where there is strong economic growth.

You have good info on this topic, you must be in a related field.

[carmenshoes]

Genuinely curious because I don't know: How much were taxpayers supposed to be on the hook for if it did go through?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

Genuinely curious because I don't know: How much were taxpayers supposed to be on the hook for if it did go through?

$307.5M or thereabouts. Can’t say how much your average taxpayer bore, though.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think Canadians and Americans are probably equally addicted to shopping. But the US capital markets have funded a lot more malls. So the shopping is diluted among more places, which makes the Canadian ones more successful on average.

The US has 40% more retail square footage than Canada per person.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...20respectively.

Wait till you compare to Europe and Asia...The US is quite overbuilt, as is Canada.

...and they're "lifestyle" centers now instead of malls aren't they?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

$307.5M or thereabouts. Can’t say how much your average taxpayer bore, though.

Probably a little more:

275
12.5 buffer
15.4 saddledome demo
10 transportation capital upgrades (signage, automated lane reversals, transit, etc.)
6.4 latest roadway stuff
=
319.3M - not including the following:

- Operational costs for mobility and event mgmt plan (aka $10M transpo capital upgrades) would be split 50/50

- Possibly a 5.4M flood mitigation component - there was some suggestion that this was included in the 10M transpo capital upgrages, which doesn't make a ton of sense; not sure if it was ever cleared up)

- Insurance premiums; risk analysis pending completed design...

- Major structural repairs (obviously impossible to put a $$ on this, but also seems silly to assume it will be $0)

- Stampede Land Swap - tough to put a FMV on the Saddledome land since the prospective buyers are pretty limited, but it is still a substantial contribution from the city.

- Land options for CSEC: Bus Barns, and at least 1 other parcel I've heard referenced verbally (ENOC?)...a lot more to unpack here, but there are legitimate concerns about whether the city would realize fair market value on these deals

- Very likely some other operational costs (though hard to say if any more/less than presently with Saddledome)


CSEC's operational inputs over the 35 year term seem to be included as the bulk of their contribution, yet these seem to be excluded on the city's side. Of course it is all very complicated, and we can debate how some of these compare to the existing situation with the dome.