Brad Treliving needs to go

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My theory is he was to be the 2C and Backlund was going to move down a level. And the reason he was going to be 2C was they’d lost faith that Bennett would be a 1C, as they planned when they drafted him. I think the initial plan was likely Bennett - Monahan - Backlund - whoever. Then Monahan - Lindholm - Backlund - whoever (with Bennett on a wing). But Neal’s failure and Lindholm’s success on RW changed all that.

Possibly, but Treliving had just signed Backlund to a brand new $32M contract just a few months prior to that Lindholm trade. I wonder if it was more of play to drop Frolik down to the 3rd line seeing as how poor his 17-18 season went.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I wonder if Joe Nieuwendyk is someone the organization would circle back to

He would immediately be our second best center.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s he doing now?

Appears to have taken some time off since resigning from Carolina in April of 2018.

[Strange Brew]

I wonder if this season doesn't end well we see a POHO hired who does a GM search. There are worse choices than Nieuwy but in general, I hope a search would extend beyond ex NHLers.

[Bingo]

Plus I always fear it's entering Oiler territory to put an ex-Flame great in charge.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Plus I always fear it's entering Oiler territory to put an ex-Flame great in charge.

I have the same fear. I do look at the recent success of former NHL'ers though.

Sakic in Colorado, Yzerman in Tampa (and now Detroit), Blake is doing well in LA, and Shanahan holding the top job in Toronto. There definitely seems to be some former players doing very good jobs out there.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I have the same fear. I do look at the recent success of former NHL'ers though.

Sakic in Colorado, Yzerman in Tampa (and now Detroit), Blake is doing well in LA, and Shanahan holding the top job in Toronto. There definitely seems to be some former players doing very good jobs out there.

True and the first three are actually ex star players in those markets.

Maybe I need to ease up on my Oiler irritation.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I have the same fear. I do look at the recent success of former NHL'ers though.

Sakic in Colorado, Yzerman in Tampa (and now Detroit), Blake is doing well in LA, and Shanahan holding the top job in Toronto. There definitely seems to be some former players doing very good jobs out there.

Funny how you are defining recent success for some of these guys. If they were Flames GM’s would these not be mediocre results of first round exits and non-playoff years outside of Yzerman and a lesser extent Yzerman.

Shanahan has been with the Leafs as long as Treliving has been here and they have won less. They made the playoffs in 17-19, and in 21 so 4 of those 7 years and lost in the first round every year. In the same timeframe the Flames made it 4 times in 7 years and won a single round.

Pretty much the same except Shanahan took over a team that had picked top 10 in 3 of the previous 6 years and Treliving only 1 top 10 pick when he joined.

Is holding the top job mean he is good at it?

Pretty quick to crown Blake as well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I have the same fear. I do look at the recent success of former NHL'ers though.

Sakic in Colorado, Yzerman in Tampa (and now Detroit), Blake is doing well in LA, and Shanahan holding the top job in Toronto. There definitely seems to be some former players doing very good jobs out there.

well, there have been plenty of ex players who became GMs, with varying degrees of success. There's your Yzermans but there are also your Milburys.

[jayswin]

What has Blake done so far?

[FlamesAddiction]

I always felt that Nieuwendyk got a bit of a raw deal in Dallas. When he took over, the team owner was having financial problems and he was limited in what he could do. Then he took a lot of flack for letting Modano walk, but it was probably the right move at the time. Then the new owner took over and wanted to change up management. Nieuwendyk was never really able to implement his vision or long term plan in Dallas.

[Erick Estrada]

I don't care as much if a GM played or not. My ideal GM would have a business or law degree and scouting background. Not a fan of the players that get fast tracked to GM positions. Brad Treliving actually has a very good pre-NHL resume. The absolutely abysmal professional scouting has been his major downfall as an NHL GM.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What has Blake done so far?

To some extent Sakic as well. Under him they've been out of the POs 4 times, lost in the 1st round another and only been to the third round once, despite having a much more talented team than most of the conference IMO (most of the players being acquired or drafted prior to his tenure). Of their stars, only Kadri and Makar have come in under his tenure. And he's arguably significantly downgraded their goaltending which has turned out to be an issue.

[GioforPM]

We've gone a bit astray because the notion was "former Flame". In that light, Yzerman doesn't really count since he was GM in TB before Detroit.

Ex stars GMing their old team: Linden was a flop in Vancouver, Clarke had his ups and downs in Philly, Savard was surprisingly successful in Montreal, but Houle and Gainey were not. Francis never made the POs with the Hurricanes.

[Vinny01]

Sakic gets a lot of praise for a couple of things that he lucked into.

First is he signed MacKinnon to a fair market long term contract and he exploded into the top 5 player he had potential to be but had not really shown. He was paid fairly in the same ballpark as guys like Monahan, and Schiefele who signed in the same summer

Second was the Duchene trade which resulted in acquiring Bowen Byram in addition to Girard and and bunch of other stuff. Ottawa was coming off a game 7 OT ECF when they made the deal and I don’t think many thought they would hit the tank like the did. Very similar fortune occurred for the Sens when they moved Karlsson and resulted in Stutzle falling in their lap but you do not hear the same praise heaped on Dorian.

Maybe the team going from historically bad one year to a legit contender over the next 3 is why he gets so much love? He has made some nice moves but if this team tops out at the second round with a top 5 player will that be a success?

[TheoFleury]

Probably just as smart putting an ex Flame in charge as it would be a random trust fund baby

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

well, there have been plenty of ex players who became GMs, with varying degrees of success. There's your Yzermans but there are also your Milburys.

Yeah, Milbury is also from an era gone by.

Originally Posted by Bingo

True and the first three are actually ex star players in those markets.

Maybe I need to ease up on my Oiler irritation.

It's certainly not automatically a good thing. In some cases though, I think to Shanahan specifically, he put a face on Toronto's scorched Earth approach. Now, their tear down went as well as you can possibly hope for - they ripped it down, and won the lottery like a year later - but it does show that managing with a very targeted goal can work out.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Funny how you are defining recent success for some of these guys. If they were Flames GM’s would these not be mediocre results of first round exits and non-playoff years outside of Yzerman and a lesser extent Yzerman.

Shanahan has been with the Leafs as long as Treliving has been here and they have won less. They made the playoffs in 17-19, and in 21 so 4 of those 7 years and lost in the first round every year. In the same timeframe the Flames made it 4 times in 7 years and won a single round.

Pretty much the same except Shanahan took over a team that had picked top 10 in 3 of the previous 6 years and Treliving only 1 top 10 pick when he joined.

Is holding the top job mean he is good at it?

Pretty quick to crown Blake as well.

Toronto is a better managed team than Calgary. As you can see while they're still at the top of the league, while the Flames are rudderless.

I'm not crowning anyone - but these are examples of well run teams. The Flames are an example of a poorly run team. Sakic, Yzerman, Shanahan, and Blake are all executing a plan - and they're at a few different stages of those plans.

Shanahan helped build the foundation that has given Toronto a real window at competing. Sakic has as well.

Yzerman built a winner in Tampa, and he's starting from scratch in Detroit - as is Blake in LA.

They also placate the fans. "What do you mean we're sucking on purpose?! oh wait, we're sucking on purpose because *insert former star* believes that he can build a winner through the draft, well I trust *insert former star*"

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Sakic gets a lot of praise for a couple of things that he lucked into.

First is he signed MacKinnon to a fair market long term contract and he exploded into the top 5 player he had potential to be but had not really shown. He was paid fairly in the same ballpark as guys like Monahan, and Schiefele who signed in the same summer

Second was the Duchene trade which resulted in acquiring Bowen Byram in addition to Girard and and bunch of other stuff. Ottawa was coming off a game 7 OT ECF when they made the deal and I don’t think many thought they would hit the tank like the did. Very similar fortune occurred for the Sens when they moved Karlsson and resulted in Stutzle falling in their lap but you do not hear the same praise heaped on Dorian.

Maybe the team going from historically bad one year to a legit contender over the next 3 is why he gets so much love? He has made some nice moves but if this team tops out at the second round with a top 5 player will that be a success?

Yeah, Sakic made some calculated moves and they paid off. That's what being a good manager is about. It feels like you're arguing that if it's not a sure thing, you shouldn't do it. Nothing in sports is a sure thing. You have to manage and put your team in a spot for good things to happen. Yep, the lottery has some luck to it - but you also have to manage your team to put yourself in a position to have good odds at winning the lottery. It's just like winning the Stanley Cup - there's no guarantee you're going to win it. "Success" can't be measured exclusively in Stanley Cups, at least not from the Flames perspective as they need to learn how to walk before they can run.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Sakic gets a lot of praise for a couple of things that he lucked into.

First is he signed MacKinnon to a fair market long term contract and he exploded into the top 5 player he had potential to be but had not really shown. He was paid fairly in the same ballpark as guys like Monahan, and Schiefele who signed in the same summer

Second was the Duchene trade which resulted in acquiring Bowen Byram in addition to Girard and and bunch of other stuff. Ottawa was coming off a game 7 OT ECF when they made the deal and I don’t think many thought they would hit the tank like the did. Very similar fortune occurred for the Sens when they moved Karlsson and resulted in Stutzle falling in their lap but you do not hear the same praise heaped on Dorian.

Maybe the team going from historically bad one year to a legit contender over the next 3 is why he gets so much love? He has made some nice moves but if this team tops out at the second round with a top 5 player will that be a success?

Sure every move that works out is partially luck. No one has a crystal ball

But you know the old saying "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity"

The only true luck in the NHL is the draft lottery.

It's amazing the good teams in sports always seem to have more luck over the long run then the bad ones. I wonder why that is

[Vinny01]

I am seeing a lot of hypocritical points being made with a lot of clearly guided bias.

The Leafs are being praised for what? Regular season success. Flames have more series victories and division banners than the Leafs have had in the same timeframe. The Leafs have 3 players making over $10.6M per and only have their best player signed for 2 more years after this where they haven’t won a playoff series in 18 years. What an excellently ran team

Sakic’s move to sign MacKinnon is calculated and genius but getting Gaudreau on a similarly good deal is irrelevant because Brad is a bad manager. Getting Byram is a stroke of genius but turning 3 years of Hamilton, 1 year of Ferland and a 3rd rounder who wouldn’t sign anywhere but New York and the Flames get 6 years of a top line forward and top pairing D each for under $5M is not great because Brad is a bad GM. Sakic fails to get past the second round or do anything of substance during this sweetheart MacKinnon deal is he still amazing?

I think you made a weak and flimsy argument that outside of Yzerman is tough to back up. Yzerman won his cups with good drafting outside the first round and while he had Hedman the rest of his key cup winning pillars were picks outside the top 15 and through trades.

You are right. Nothing in sports is a sure thing. One thing we have seen is teams that tank and get high picks maybe they turn it around. LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh we’re able to do it and 2 of those 3 markets are among the most desirable in the US. Markets like Buffalo, Edmonton, Columbus, Florida have struggled. Florida is turning it around because they have a “fanbase” that wasn’t demanding change with constant playoff misses. They have matured lead by players picked 8-12 years ago just hitting their primes. We have been demanding those same players on our team (Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk etc) be traded for the last few years because this core can’t make it out of the first round.

I am fully ready to move on from Treliving as well but I think a list of these ex players in an effort to promote Joe Niewendyk to take over is a weak one.

[Strange Brew]

How about Rogie Vachon or Phil Esposito. There you have some former players turned GM’s that weren’t afraid to make some moves.

Other pro sports seemed to have turned the corner in embracing the multitude of skills and approaches needed to be successful as an executive. Hopefully hockey starts coming around soon.