[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[powderjunkie]

I believe the only tangible outcome from this whole process is the paving of the Remington lot between 11th and CP Tracks (not sure how much has been paved)...someone has renamed it with some nice google maps snark: Jeff Davision Innovation Centre

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sorry, I dont think I'm following you here. I firmly believed that the CalgaryNEXT proposal was preposterously untenable and straight-up fantasy and that was also where the creosote reclamation issues came in.

Did I misunderstand the tone of the comment I quoted? Perhaps CalgaryNext just didn't include the reclamation costs, but I would include those in the total project costs, and that blows the financial structure of CalgaryNext out of the water.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by kermitology

I would disagree with this statement given there was potentially a $1B environmental reclamation of creosote contamination that CSEC wanted the City to take on as part of that proposal. That was an enormous risk for the city financially.

Legally the City responsibility once they took over the land from the company that originally owned it. Read the original agreement, free land and city is responsible for cleanup, but they kept punting on that and went from $30 M cleanup to over $300 M because they kept pushing it off.

CalgaryNext wasn't the best project but don't try to pin this screw up on the Flames. That land has sat empty for at least 50 years because of the creosote.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Legally the City responsibility once they took over the land from the company that originally owned it. Read the original agreement, free land and city is responsible for cleanup, but they kept punting on that and went from $30 M cleanup to over $300 M because they kept pushing it off.

CalgaryNext wasn't the best project but don't try to pin this screw up on the Flames. That land has sat empty for at least 50 years because of the creosote.

I don't disagree that it's the city's responsibility to clean it up (sounds a lot like orphan well's though, doesn't it?) and they possibly could have received funding from other levels of government to help on that, but CalgaryNext would have forced the issue, so it acting as the trigger includes it in to total cost. Either CSEC pays something close to market value for the land or they chip in on clean up, or - as we saw, choose a different location.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I agree the Edmonton deal was bad, but it has at least catalyzed the clean up of their slum section of downtown...something Calgary has managed to generally achieve in the EV and Victoria Park itself. Of course, both WV and EV are inherently more desirable for development (proximity to river, and a far better downtown core than EDM).

EV and Victoria Park will continue to gentrify on their own...a new arena would help accelerate it in that area a little bit, but there is only so much total demand for development in the city overall.

I guess my point is that Edmonton was at least buying something that would have been much harder for them to achieve otherwise. We were trying to move the north doors of our big arena 3 blocks further north.

Okay, I completely agree with that. Its obvious what they were trying to do there and the circumstances arent the same here because Calgary is significantly less of a dumpster fire.

However we also have a lot less Government work and our Downtown core that pays a significant chunk of our Property Taxes is severely curtailed. So revitalizing that is important.

Originally Posted by kermitology

Did I misunderstand the tone of the comment I quoted? Perhaps CalgaryNext just didn't include the reclamation costs, but I would include those in the total project costs, and that blows the financial structure of CalgaryNext out of the water.

I'm not entirely sure, we might be discussing past each other here? I dont recall if the creosote reclamation was a part of the CalgaryNEXT finances but it didnt really matter either way.

Regardless the City was going to be on the hook for the Creosote cleanup, but it was something like $1B.

The Financial structure for CalgaryNext was insane.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by kermitology

I don't disagree that it's the city's responsibility to clean it up (sounds a lot like orphan well's though, doesn't it?) and they possibly could have received funding from other levels of government to help on that, but CalgaryNext would have forced the issue, so it acting as the trigger includes it in to total cost. Either CSEC pays something close to market value for the land or they chip in on clean up, or - as we saw, choose a different location.

Orphan wells actually have a fund set up by industry. The west end land is the City’s problem. Why would the province or the feds cover that?

CSEC’s plan was the best opportunity to deal with it in a development sense.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not entirely sure, we might be discussing past each other here? I dont recall if the creosote reclamation was a part of the CalgaryNEXT finances but it didnt really matter either way.

Regardless the City was going to be on the hook for the Creosote cleanup, but it was something like $1B.

The Financial structure for CalgaryNext was insane.

I think we agree, but I misunderstood what you were trying to say in the bit I quoted. CalgaryNext was just awful financially.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Orphan wells actually have a fund set up by industry. The west end land is the City’s problem. Why would the province or the feds cover that?

CSEC’s plan was the best opportunity to deal with it in a development sense.

And yet V. Brad Wilson still hasn't cleaned up his wells.. and didn't the federal government give a tonne of money to the province to fund that orphan well program? It's definitely not entirely industry funded. Also, the city basically inherited the contaminated land with the polluting entity dissolving and not cleaning up it's own mess, so I would expect that to eventually be cleaned up with assistance from other levels of government as the city can't bear that level of expense on it's own.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by kermitology

And yet V. Brad Wilson still hasn't cleaned up his wells.. and didn't the federal government give a tonne of money to the province to fund that orphan well program? It's definitely not entirely industry funded. Also, the city basically inherited the contaminated land with the polluting entity dissolving and not cleaning up it's own mess, so I would expect that to eventually be cleaned up with assistance from other levels of government as the city can't bear that level of expense on it's own.

Again, try reading something, anything for facts. The City bought the land and assumed the cleanup, ffs.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-cleanup-costs

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by kermitology

And yet V. Brad Wilson still hasn't cleaned up his wells.. and didn't the federal government give a tonne of money to the province to fund that orphan well program? It's definitely not entirely industry funded. Also, the city basically inherited the contaminated land with the polluting entity dissolving and not cleaning up it's own mess, so I would expect that to eventually be cleaned up with assistance from other levels of government as the city can't bear that level of expense on it's own.

I think you mean W. Brett Wilson.

At least when going for dramatic effect maybe get the initial and name right.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I think you mean W. Brett Wilson.

At least when going for dramatic effect maybe get the initial and name right.

Oh, no, I meant to disparage that piece of garbage.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Again, try reading something, anything for facts. The City bought the land and assumed the cleanup, ffs.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-cleanup-costs

I stand corrected. I would still expect that other levels of government will step in to assist the financial burden for cleaning it up.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by kermitology

I think we agree, but I misunderstood what you were trying to say in the bit I quoted. CalgaryNext was just awful financially.

Its funny, I remember watching the big Press Conference at my office with some fellow Flames fans, friends and clients and we were all enthralled at the audacity of the idea of the project.

And everyone was really excited they even didnt care about the grade-school level renderings, but then the Financial slide came up and my heart just sank.

It took me a grand total of 3 seconds to look at that and know immediately that everything else was BS. It was done. That was never, ever, ever going to work.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Again, try reading something, anything for facts. The City bought the land and assumed the cleanup, ffs.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-cleanup-costs

Interesting article - would domtar still be on the hook if the city didnt buy the land? The article states:

When council approved the purchase of the GSL Chevrolet dealership lands at an in camera session a year earlier, a report from the city’s corporate services department noted that an environmental review was underway and that any concerns would be reported.

Does this mean if the city didnt buy it, then a car dealership would have been on the hook for 300 million to clean it up?

[Manhattanboy]

Loved the vision of CalgaryNEXT as well. Too bad, it would have launched this town straight into the big leagues. Having a venue like that for every event under the sun you can think of, particularly in our climate, would have been amazing.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Interesting article - would domtar still be on the hook if the city didnt buy the land? The article states:

When council approved the purchase of the GSL Chevrolet dealership lands at an in camera session a year earlier, a report from the city’s corporate services department noted that an environmental review was underway and that any concerns would be reported.

Does this mean if the city didnt buy it, then a car dealership would have been on the hook for 300 million to clean it up?

I think the land was for sale and developers tried to buy it but couldn't afford the cleanup and Domtar wasn't doing it. To get it moving the City purchased it and assumed the clean up costs. Now Domtar is off the hook. IF the City hadn't purchased it then Domtar would be responsible for the cleanup. This is one big reason companies should do environmental testing before purchasing any property.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm not entirely sure, we might be discussing past each other here? I dont recall if the creosote reclamation was a part of the CalgaryNEXT finances but it didnt really matter either way.

IIRC the team was claiming the reclamation costs were a part of the financing, and the city/critics were saying that if they were, they were nowhere near enough.

[N-E-B]

The more that comes out the more I think it really just was poor timing. Which is okay. I understand it. But quit trying to pin the blame on the other side.

I’d have a lot more respect if both sides would have just come together, released a joint statement saying the project wasn’t financially viable at this time, and that the project would be re-evaluated in the future.

Instead we got a bunch of egotistical man-children slinging mud trying to sewer the other side and win the public’s favour.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The more that comes out the more I think it really just was poor timing. Which is okay. I understand it. But quit trying to pin the blame on the other side.

I’d have a lot more respect if both sides would have just come together, released a joint statement saying the project wasn’t financially viable at this time, and that the project would be re-evaluated in the future.

Instead we got a bunch of egotistical man-children slinging mud trying to sewer the other side and win the public’s favour.

Couldnt agree more. Its what I would have done.

I have no idea what kind of 'points' some of these people think they're scoring.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The more that comes out the more I think it really just was poor timing. Which is okay. I understand it. But quit trying to pin the blame on the other side.

I’d have a lot more respect if both sides would have just come together, released a joint statement saying the project wasn’t financially viable at this time, and that the project would be re-evaluated in the future.

Instead we got a bunch of egotistical man-children slinging mud trying to sewer the other side and win the public’s favour.

I think this is it.