Sutter re: recalling prospects

[Finger Cookin]

Feels like it's been a good long while since we've had a good "prospect being underused" discussion. Guess the honeymoon is over Darryl.

[Reggie Dunlop]

The Flames have a plethora of the undersized forwards in the system.

Zavgorodny's been shipped back home, and I imagine Pettersen is next.

They may very well move on from Phillips in the off season too.

Pelletier still has a lot of runway (and the best chances).

Next season, a new crop including Kerins and Francis should be in the system.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You seem to be under the impression that Peletier, Gawdin and Phillips are better hockey players than Ritchie, Richardson and Lewis.

They are not.

Pelletier will be, maybe even next year. The others aren't.

You have no idea if they aren't. We haven't seen Pelletier at all, and we haven't seen Phillips in any meaningful games.

All I care about is seeing a change, because the current depth isn't working. If Phillips/Pelletier don't work, send them back down.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You have no idea if they aren't. We haven't seen Pelletier at all, and we haven't seen Phillips in any meaningful games.

All I care about is seeing a change, because the current depth isn't working. If Phillips/Pelletier don't work, send them back down.

Well, the Flames will either let Phillips walk, or move him in the off-season, in my opinion. Another organization may see him as a 'tweener.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

The Flames have a plethora of the undersized forwards in the system.

Zavgorodny's been shipped back home, and I imagine Pettersen is next.

They may very well move on from Phillips in the off season too.

Pelletier still has a lot of runway (and the best chances).

Next season, a new crop including Kerins and Francis should be in the system.

As an aside, I never got the Pettersen love. I happened to see a few of his games in college and thought he was so perimeter focused and not all that fast. Great hands though.

The NHL is frikking hard. If your game is all about offense, you better be lighting up whatever level you're currently at to an extreme.

Maybe that applies to Phillips too.

For the vast majority of NHLers, you also need size, reach, speed and strength.

[TheScorpion]

Pettersen has been demoted big time this year. His game is different from Phillips' in nearly every conceivable way. Phillips is one of the grittiest players on the team. Emilio is... not. And he's also much less skilled.

[icarus]

The fact of the matter is the Flames are having an above-average season in terms of injury luck, and in most others years we would have already seen more call-ups in the lineup.

So we probably wouldn't be having the discussion about whether the help we (feel we) need is on the farm, because we would have seen it firsthand and, as usual when AHLers fill in, probably would have concluded that, no, that's not the panacea we desire.

Personally I think one or two veteran contributors via trade is what Brad should be looking for before the deadline, like in 04. I'm not saying a Simon or Niememen type per se but a veteran presence that can elevate in big game situations and rise to the occasion.

[browna]

Richardson and Lewis, Pitlick to a lesser degree, know their role and keep their mouth shut.

Darryl brought them in specifically because he trusts those guys to do a certain role on the squad, and do it well and do it consistently…and he knows they will do both, because in Richardson and Lewis’s case, they have gained Sutter’s trust by doing that exact same role for him previously on the Kings.

They aren’t going to try anything different or more or new, like a rookie trying to make an impression may do after getting frustrated playing the basic role of Richardson for 3 games.

[SuperMatt18]

Except that Sutter himself has said that we need more scoring from our bottom 6 and they haven’t been good enough.

I think he’s fine with Lewis but Richardson and Pitlick have both been healthy scratches and I’m not sure he’s too worried about either of those guys coming out of the lineup.

Richardson is a guy that was a healthy scratch under Sutter a lot in LA too and was a guy they let walk as a UFA with Sutter as coach and he signed a deal in Vancouver for less than he was making in LA the year before.

I’m not sure Richardson is a guy Sutter loves. Lucic and Lewis both have more history with him and I think they are vets Sutter trusts a lot more.

Flames need to add pieces but from a cap perspective but it makes a lot more sense to be able to do that closer to the deadline when they will be able to add about $7M in salary.

Might as well give a guy like Phillips a shot in the meantime to see if they surprise you and can find a fit.

[btimbit]

I'm with Sutter here. I mean, I think the answer can be both what he's saying and what Scorp is saying.

Yes we need to improve our bottom 6. But let's let our prospects develop, they aren't a magic solution and there's no guarantee they're an improvement.

[ComixZone]

Yeah, I’m not criticizing Sutter.

First thing, Brad manages the roster - who gets recalled is his decision.

Second thing, Brad built this NHL roster. He had all off-season to build something, and this is what he managed to put together. The lack of secondary scoring is because Brad can’t build a roster properly. Not once in his 8 years has he a built a roster worth a damn. He has failed every year.

[Mindtravellee]

One problem due to the lack of games is time taken getting up to the speed of the NHL. How many games in a row would they need to be a net positive?

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You have no idea if they aren't. We haven't seen Pelletier at all, and we haven't seen Phillips in any meaningful games.

All I care about is seeing a change, because the current depth isn't working. If Phillips/Pelletier don't work, send them back down.

I side with Sutter in having patience. Just because something isn't working, it doesn't mean something else will. The team has done pretty well thus far and it's Daryl's first season. Because of Covid and their travel schedule, it's probably been hard to have proper practice time to make adjustments and such. Coaching adjustments can greatly improve things that aren't working. Patience.

Just because Phillips hasn't been called up yet, it doesn't meant he won't. There's almost 50 games left this season. Just because we haven't seen Phillips get a chance in the NHL yet, it doesn't mean Daryl or the organization don't have a decent idea how he'd do in a call-up. Even if he helped the offense, he'd still have to do just as well as the long-time NHLer defensively, penalty-killing, and consistency to produce a net positive. He may be needed later due to injuries. Patience.

I think the part you're missing from Daryl here is just how big of a leap it is from the AHL to NHL. For every small player in the NHL, there are probably a dozen tweeners who have lit up the AHL but never been able to carve out an NHL career. I've watched Phillips at least 5-6 times in person in the WHL after the Flames drafted him and I've been rooting for him ever since. But I'm personally ok with the fact that he's not getting his shot right now. Patience.

[Rick M.]

When Sutter speaks of “big, fast” teams, his face lights up. It’s clear what his preferences are.

[1qqaaz]

All but 6 of the 2019 1st round picks have played in the NHL.
Pelletier is one of the few that haven't. 2 were drafted before him, 3 were drafted after.
Most first round picks play in the NHL by their +2 season.

Pelletier has been great and should be an exception to this.

And Sutter doesn't exactly have a great track record of player development. Really, it couldn't be much worse.

I agree that development is the priority - moreso than the need for scoring in the bottom 6.
But I don't think burying Pelletier in the AHL for "a couple of years" is proper development when he's already one of the best players in the league.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You have no idea if they aren't. We haven't seen Pelletier at all, and we haven't seen Phillips in any meaningful games.

All I care about is seeing a change, because the current depth isn't working. If Phillips/Pelletier don't work, send them back down.

And that's the crux of it right there. You want change. Understandable - we all do. That doesn't make these AHL guys better than the matured NHL guys we currently have.

Personally, I would be up for giving Pelletier a stint - give him 5-9 games to see where his game is and how he can handle it. But beyond that, these guys aren't going to improve the team.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

But the point is to audition him, give him 5-10 games as a reward and keep him up if he pops off. Is that going to stunt him?

Re: the Phillips undersized comments, that's all well and good if he's a wallflower who shies away from contact and doesn't play a hard game. But he's one of Stockton's grittiest players.

Yeah it could.

If Pelletier is building up confidence at the pro game then comes up and gets filled in five on five in the bottom six he could literally lose the curve he's on and have to start over.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Except that Sutter himself has said that we need more scoring from our bottom 6 and they haven’t been good enough.

I think he’s fine with Lewis but Richardson and Pitlick have both been healthy scratches and I’m not sure he’s too worried about either of those guys coming out of the lineup.

Richardson is a guy that was a healthy scratch under Sutter a lot in LA too and was a guy they let walk as a UFA with Sutter as coach and he signed a deal in Vancouver for less than he was making in LA the year before.

I’m not sure Richardson is a guy Sutter loves. Lucic and Lewis both have more history with him and I think they are vets Sutter trusts a lot more.

Flames need to add pieces but from a cap perspective but it makes a lot more sense to be able to do that closer to the deadline when they will be able to add about $7M in salary.

Might as well give a guy like Phillips a shot in the meantime to see if they surprise you and can find a fit.

Missed those comments, but I'm glad he made them.

I'm with you 100% that Richardson is the target, so I'm glad loyalty isn't clouding his need to upgrade the player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, I’m not criticizing Sutter.

First thing, Brad manages the roster - who gets recalled is his decision.

Second thing, Brad built this NHL roster. He had all off-season to build something, and this is what he managed to put together. The lack of secondary scoring is because Brad can’t build a roster properly. Not once in his 8 years has he a built a roster worth a damn. He has failed every year.

Huh?

You think the roster of ex Sutter players in the bottom six is by Treliving's design with no Sutter input?

Those are clear Sutter asks, Gudbranson was another.

And what of Sutter's personality leads you to believe he's just sitting in his office wondering who Treliving will add to his active roster?

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

All but 6 of the 2019 1st round picks have played in the NHL.
Pelletier is one of the few that haven't. 2 were drafted before him, 3 were drafted after.
Most first round picks play in the NHL by their +2 season.

Pelletier has been great and should be an exception to this.

And Sutter doesn't exactly have a great track record of player development. Really, it couldn't be much worse.

I agree that development is the priority - moreso than the need for scoring in the bottom 6.
But I don't think burying Pelletier in the AHL for "a couple of years" is proper development when he's already one of the best players in the league.

Having played in the NHL by now is now way to measure the successful development of a prospect. Pelletier hasn't even played 30 games in his first season as a pro, so he's hardly been buried for 2 years. Glenn Gawdin is also one of the best players in the AHL right now and he has 1 point in 9 games as a Flame.