[PGT] Lightning 4 Flames 1

[bubbsy]

It's just unfair as a nhl fan in Canada vs the US.

Florida, Tampa, Carolina have been allowed to struggle for lengthy periods, scoop up elite draft picks (credit to them for making use of so many picks of course).

It's sad to think how Tb and flames were in the cup final 17 years ago, flames chased the dream, tried to rebuild quick, yet the lightning just were an absolute tire fire but now have 2 more cups and an elite program to show for it.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

To be controversial would it be terrible if Gaudreau and Tkachuk both chose to walk in the next 1-2 years and forced this organization into a re-build.

I worry that signing one or both to long-term deals just will ensure this team is middling. Not because of them but because they will allow the team to be "good" but not great.

So they both walk and the organization has to finally reckon that this re-build didn't work and it's time to tear it down.

I'm not in favor of tanking but if there's one year that tanking would change this franchise (potentailly) it's 2023. I see 3 potential franchise altering players at the top of that draft.

I'm split.

My love of Calgary Flames hockey tells me I don't want Johnny to leave because he's the 2nd or 3rd best player this team has had in my life as a hockey fan (beginning in about 95). I'm less attached to Tkachuk (mainly because I do believe there is something to the rumours that Tkachuk doesn't want to be here long term).

On the other side of it, my desire to see the Flames win a Stanley Cup tells me this team needs to get really bad before that happens - but it needs to be at the right time, and yeah...2023 presents the most interesting opportunity since the McDavid/Eichel draft.

Go for it with the roster we have (no spending picks/prospects to get better this season), and then let Johnny go in the summer while trading Tkachuk for a nice futures-based return is probably the best path forward for a team that never really became anything noteworthy in this "era".

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

It's sad to think how Tb and flames were in the cup final 17 years ago, flames chased the dream, tried to rebuild quick, yet the lightning just were an absolute tire fire but now have 2 more cups and an elite program to show for it.

This is a bit revisionist about Tampa Bay.

They tried to go for it just as much as the Flames did - they just were so restricted by the salary cap that it killed their team.

They had re-signed all of Lecavalier, Richards, St.Louis, and Boyle but just ended up not being able to dress a competitive team around them.

They bottomed out in 2008 and drafted Stamkos. Even going into the 08-09 season they wanted to contend. They traded for Ryan Malone and gave him 7 year contract, traded for Gary Roberts, traded for Brian Rolston. Traded Boyle but turned that return in to Andrei Mezaros and gave him a 6 year deal.

It wasn't a planned re-build, it wasn't a tear down strategy. They just ended up being really bad in the 2007-2008 season and got lucky and got the 1st overall pick. Then were really bad again in 08-09 and got Hedman.

But this wasn't some long, planned out "re-build' they were just bad and got lucky to get two high picks.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

To be controversial would it be terrible if Gaudreau and Tkachuk both chose to walk in the next 1-2 years and forced this organization into a re-build.

I worry that signing one or both to long-term deals just will ensure this team is middling. Not because of them but because they will allow the team to be "good" but not great.

So they both walk and the organization has to finally reckon that this re-build didn't work and it's time to tear it down.

I'm not in favor of tanking but if there's one year that tanking would change this franchise (potentailly) it's 2023. I see 3 potential franchise altering players at the top of that draft.

That's why this season has been so fun. Enjoy the sudden surge. They either build on it, sign these guys up to try to get even better. OR don't sign and go full rebuild with a chance at bedard.

Just don't do the flames way which is to lose the big guys but try to peice together a winning roster....

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah I'm not in disagreement. Adding 1 top 6 forward would slot everyone far better. Adding 1 top 6 and 1 middle 6 would be even better.
I just don't know that I'm going to like the acquisition cost including giving up another 1st round pick

It doesn't have to be a trade and probably shouldn't be this year. If you need to trade for a player now to convince Tkachuk and Gaudreau to stay then maybe but I think patience is needed still.

Mangiapane is a good top 6 and was not traded for. We need to develop Zary, Pelletier or Coronato into a top 6 player and hopefully they can be a top 9 player in the early stages of their career and really only need to out perform guys like Ritchie, Pitlick, Lewis and Richardson to improve this team.

Monahan and Lucic are more likely to be gone after their contracts expire. Hopefully we develop someone to take a top 6 spot by the time their deal is up but we should be able easily replace what Monahan contributes right now with that money and a bunch of good ELC's on this team.

If we keep this top line together we already have moved past one of the biggest question marks this team had over the last few years. How do we replace Gio? It didn't look like we could through the system but so far we aren't really missing him or at least missing Gio past his norris season.

We have a lot of middle of the lineup crap not really doing a whole lot but working hard that it's very possible that this team develops much better middle line up players. Keeping the first line is the key as this team really doesn't have too many very old key contributors. Backlund is the oldest and he really isn't doing a whole lot. Tanev is probably the next biggest risk to drop off in the near future.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This is a bit revisionist about Tampa Bay.

They tried to go for it just as much as the Flames did - they just were so restricted by the salary cap that it killed their team.

They had re-signed all of Lecavalier, Richards, St.Louis, and Boyle but just ended up not being able to dress a competitive team around them.

They bottomed out in 2008 and drafted Stamkos.

It wasn't a planned re-build, it wasn't a tear down strategy. They just ended up being really bad in the 2007-2008 season and got lucky and got the 1st overall pick.

Great point.

I suppose my point is once they do suck, they do it all the way. Look no farther than how the flames handled the last quarter of last season, as an example.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Great point.

I suppose my point is once they do suck, they do it all the way. Look no farther than how the flames handled the last quarter of last season, as an example.

The big thing really is about drafting well and continually building over time, and if you're having a bad season just lean into it and make the high draft pick and sell any UFAs.

That is what both Washington and Tampa Bay have done to extend their window. Washington won 12 years after drafting Ovechkin, Tampa won 12 years after drafting Stamkos, it was 11 years after drafting Pietrangelo for St.Louis.

People point at Chicago and Pittsburgh but those are almost impossible to replicate. And really you have to be really, really lucky to get a top 2 pick and then even luckier to get a pick that is the Crosby, Kane, Ovechkin level of talent. And those teams were able to win under the old CBA rules.

Arizona has maybe the worst roster I've ever seen heading into the season, and even they have been surpassed by Montreal when it comes to sucking this season and they are a team that made the cup finals last year.

The key is continually draft well over time, and accumulate picks in the years where you aren't going to make the playoffs.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

To be controversial would it be terrible if Gaudreau and Tkachuk both chose to walk in the next 1-2 years and forced this organization into a re-build.

I worry that signing one or both to long-term deals just will ensure this team is middling. Not because of them but because they will allow the team to be "good" but not great.

So they both walk and the organization has to finally reckon that this re-build didn't work and it's time to tear it down.

I'm not in favor of tanking but if there's one year that tanking would change this franchise (potentially) it's 2023. I see 3 potential franchise altering players at the top of that draft.

I think if Johnny walks you see if Tkachuck will sign an 8 year deal. If he doesn't you forgo the second year and trade him for a serious return. No need to have a wasted season and then let Tkachuck walk for nothing. If Johnny walks and the management still trys to compete then we pretty much have the worst management and ownership in the league.

at the point of Johnny walking I also try and move Tanev, Markstrom, and anyone else that will not be useful here in the 2025 season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The big thing really is about drafting well and continually building over time, and if you're having a bad season just lean into it and make the high draft pick and sell any UFAs.

That is what both Washington and Tampa Bay have done to extend their window. Washington won 12 years after drafting Ovechkin, Tampa won 12 years after drafting Stamkos, it was 11 years after drafting Pietrangelo for St.Louis.

People point at Chicago and Pittsburgh but those are almost impossible to replicate. And really you have to be really, really lucky to get a top 2 pick and then even luckier to get a pick that is the Crosby, Kane, Ovechkin level of talent. And those teams were able to win under the old CBA rules.

Arizona has maybe the worst roster I've ever seen heading into the season, and even they have been surpassed by Montreal when it comes to sucking this season and they are a team that made the cup finals last year.

The key is continually draft well over time, and accumulate picks in the years where you aren't going to make the playoffs.

They may point at Chicago, but for a long long long time during my life Chicago was sure terrible. And Pittsburgh was too, before Mario.

Really you need a huge combo of luck and good management. Edmonton has had lottery luck but zero good management. Buffalo has actively tanked, but missed on McDavid and has had brutal management to boot. AZ should have been successful both through draft and as a UFA destination, like Vegas.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Leaving Point wide open in front of the net is the right way to play?

Do you remember when Sutter asked the 04 team if they wanted him to get them Yzermans autograph at the start of the series? That is how he operates his teams. Make them the underdogs and fight for every inch of ice. He doesn't operate by throwing jabs at management in press conferences.

That was single play on a single shift. That happens.

But in terms of the overall systems, that was the type of game Darryl preferred over the run & gun game on Tuesday. Darryl’s not blowing smoke up anyone’s ass here. I see it, you see it, we all see it. This is a one line team and we just got dominated by Tampa who has 3. Was it supposed to be even close? The Flame simply, are just not at Tampa’s level and it’s probably an unfair comparison. The Flames missed the playoffs last season whereas the Lightning are looking to three-peat.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That was single play on a single shift. That happens.

But in terms of the overall systems, that was the type of game Darryl preferred over the run & gun game on Tuesday. Darryl’s not blowing smoke up anyone’s ass here. I see it, you see it, we all see it. This is a one line team and we just got dominated by Tampa who has 3. Was it supposed to be even close? The Flame simply, are just not at Tampa’s level and it’s probably an unfair comparison. The Flames missed the playoffs last season whereas the Lightning are looking to three-peat.

It was a better example of Sutter Hockey than against the Panthers, yes. It was also a b example of how TB is far more talented and deep. BUT it doesn’t mean Sutter’s comments are somehow aimed at the GM, which is the point. I think they are aimed at motivating his team to play Sutter Hockey even harder.

People are always trying to set Sutter against Treliving, when it’s pretty clear to me they are working together - look at Treliving’s off season pickups like Lewis, Richardson, Gudbranson and Zadorov, and tell me that’s not the case.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah I'm not in disagreement. Adding 1 top 6 forward would slot everyone far better. Adding 1 top 6 and 1 middle 6 would be even better.
I just don't know that I'm going to like the acquisition cost including giving up another 1st round pick

To me, it’s not even so much about slotting. I’m just not sure the majority of this roster can check the way Darryl wants this team to check. If the right forward can be had that fixes the 2nd line, then that would go along why in ensuring this team isn’t just a one line wonder.

But in terms of beating a team like Tampa, In my opinion, multiple moves need to be made and when I say multiple moves, I’m including the blue line. But if we’re being realistic, the Flames don’t need to be a team that can beat Tampa in the finals this season. Our expectations are the playoffs and hopefully some semblance of playoff success. Maybe after that, this organization can continue to take steps forward and march their way towards Tampa’s level.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was a better example of Sutter Hockey than against the Panthers, yes. It was also a b example of how TB is far more talented and deep. BUT it doesn’t mean Sutter’s comments are somehow aimed at the GM, which is the point. I think they are aimed at motivating his team to play Sutter Hockey even harder.

People are always trying to set Sutter against Treliving, when it’s pretty clear to me they are working together - look at Treliving’s off season pickups like Lewis, Richardson, Gudbranson and Zadorov, and tell me that’s not the case.

Do the players even listen to the post game pressers? I doubt any of these guys want more of Darryl’s voice in their ears.

To me, it’s just Darryl telling it like it is to the media in that he doesn’t like a lot of the personnel on the team. I’m not even saying this is Darryl vs Treliving because you’re right, they’re working in unison to improve the team. But it’s also a reality that we’re in a cap world and you can’t just blow everything up in a blink of an eye. So it’ll be a slow process to get the players Darryl wants who at the same time, is still learning on the job as well. He hasn’t coached in a few years and is seeing a lot of “new” teams he’s never seen before.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I agree that Johnny and Tkachuk contracts need to be reasonable. Some suggesting that giving them $11 mil is worth it are wrong IMO. There is a limit and if you go above the limit the idea of a rebuild becomes the better option than having guys for 6 years at way to much money in a flat cap world.

But I do think with a decent contract sure 1% at winning the cup might be right but there is still a much better chance at being a contender in the next year or 2 if we develop some players and get rid of some bad contracts coming up pretty soon

I don’t know if saving a million here or there is going to ultimately make you or break you. Obviously, a combined $22M for Tkachuk and Gaudreau would be very hard on your cap situation, but these 2 right now along with Lindholm, form arguably the best 2 way line in the game.

If it comes down to having to save money elsewhere, then so be it. Maybe you can’t afford another Zadorov like contract and will have to downgrade a bit. This is where good amateur scouting and good pro scouting come into play.

Toronto does a great job of this. They lose middle guys all the time, but make up for that by picking up quality depth players. Ditto for Tampa, they lost their entire championship third line and Kucherov for most of the season and haven’t sagged at all.

A great core is imperative to winning in this league. I know I’d rather have Johnny Gaudreau instead of paying for 2 Blake Colemans or a Troy Brouwer + James Neal combo. So if $11M is required, then so be it.

[GioforPM]

^^ I’m not sure Toronto is a great role model. TB is, but they’ve also had to do some pretty fancy maneuvering. If they can stay healthy they’ll be a threat, but not like before.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t know if saving a million here or there is going to ultimately make you or break you. Obviously, a combined $22M for Tkachuk and Gaudreau would be very hard on your cap situation, but these 2 right now along with Lindholm, form arguably the best 2 way line in the game.

If it comes down to having to save money elsewhere, then so be it. Maybe you can’t afford another Zadorov like contract and will have to downgrade a bit. This is where good amateur scouting and good pro scouting come into play.

Toronto does a great job of this. They lose middle guys all the time, but make up for that by picking up quality depth players. Ditto for Tampa, they lost their entire championship third line and Kucherov for most of the season and haven’t sagged at all.

A great core is imperative to winning in this league. I know I’d rather have Johnny Gaudreau instead of paying for 2 Blake Colemans or a Troy Brouwer + James Neal combo. So if $11M is required, then so be it.

I agree with this. But Tampa does sign middle guys as well - Cirelli is making $4.8/yr. They don't have guys like Pitlick, Gudbranson and Zadorov playing 3rd pair and 4th line making more than $1.5m. And they're cheaper guys are putting up points - Perry, Colton

The Flames have a lot of good contracts. Assuming they can lock up Kylington for less than $5m/year - they'll have a top 4 defense with all guys under $5m. Lindholm is a steal at his contract.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t know if saving a million here or there is going to ultimately make you or break you. Obviously, a combined $22M for Tkachuk and Gaudreau would be very hard on your cap situation, but these 2 right now along with Lindholm, form arguably the best 2 way line in the game.

If it comes down to having to save money elsewhere, then so be it. Maybe you can’t afford another Zadorov like contract and will have to downgrade a bit. This is where good amateur scouting and good pro scouting come into play.

Toronto does a great job of this. They lose middle guys all the time, but make up for that by picking up quality depth players. Ditto for Tampa, they lost their entire championship third line and Kucherov for most of the season and haven’t sagged at all.

A great core is imperative to winning in this league. I know I’d rather have Johnny Gaudreau instead of paying for 2 Blake Colemans or a Troy Brouwer + James Neal combo. So if $11M is required, then so be it.

The problem is Tampa is not over paying anyone. Kucherov Point and Palat are as good if not better than our first line. Kucherov and Point make 19 mil and add Palat and you are taking 3 players 23.8 mil. Palat is a UFA but right now Point contract hasn't even kicked in.

Hedman makes less than $8 mil. Once again not an over pay but really one of the best contracts in the NHL.

Vasilevsky makes $9.5 mil and that is steep for a goalie but he's one of the best.

Kucherov is probably $2 mil under what he should be, Hedman is $3 mil under what he should be. Point is at $7 mil right now and probably $2 mil less than he should be. These mil here mil there add up to Stamkos.

Sure if you look at the short term the Flames can get rid of Zadorov, Monahan and Lucic and just give Tkachuk and Gaudreau $11 mil and be fine for a bit. But what will Lindholm get? Hard not to give him $11 mil in 2 years.

What does Mangiapane get?

What does Kylington get?

I'm struggiling to sign up for a middle of the pack wild card type record and cap hell. Pelletier and Zary could be future assets to this team but with the ELC slide this year you have them for 2 years and if they play well (because it is needed to improve this team) you have 2 years to win it all before you set your self up for a rebuild. Maybe they can win it all in 2 years but I'm not sure with about $32 mil in cap and 11 guys signed giving $22 mil to 2 players and still needing $10 for the other 2 that this team gets better. It might take Monahan dumped to sign everyone and this all includes no Zadorov, Pitlick and Gudbranson gone and a bunch of league minimum replacements. I already see year 1 being a waste with those contracts.

$27 mil for Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Mangiapane and Kylington is probably the max we can afford before we screw our cap situation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Do the players even listen to the post game pressers? I doubt any of these guys want more of Darryl’s voice in their ears.

To me, it’s just Darryl telling it like it is to the media in that he doesn’t like a lot of the personnel on the team. I’m not even saying this is Darryl vs Treliving because you’re right, they’re working in unison to improve the team. But it’s also a reality that we’re in a cap world and you can’t just blow everything up in a blink of an eye. So it’ll be a slow process to get the players Darryl wants who at the same time, is still learning on the job as well. He hasn’t coached in a few years and is seeing a lot of “new” teams he’s never seen before.

Whether or not they listen I bet he is telling the media exactly what he just told the players, or is about to tell them in this instance.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

It's just unfair as a nhl fan in Canada vs the US.

Florida, Tampa, Carolina have been allowed to struggle for lengthy periods, scoop up elite draft picks (credit to them for making use of so many picks of course).

It's sad to think how Tb and flames were in the cup final 17 years ago, flames chased the dream, tried to rebuild quick, yet the lightning just were an absolute tire fire but now have 2 more cups and an elite program to show for it.

Sounds a bit whiny, what does the flames poor track record of drafting, player management & bad trades have to do with Canada vs US.

We had had our opportunities to bottom out, we stubbornly chose not to therefore leading to a poor return for Iggy, our fault there, not utilizing Sam Bennett is our fault- , we had a top 4 pick... and lets not get into all the poor trades over the years.

We have no one but to blame but ourselves IMO.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was a better example of Sutter Hockey than against the Panthers, yes. It was also a b example of how TB is far more talented and deep. BUT it doesn’t mean Sutter’s comments are somehow aimed at the GM, which is the point. I think they are aimed at motivating his team to play Sutter Hockey even harder.

People are always trying to set Sutter against Treliving, when it’s pretty clear to me they are working together - look at Treliving’s off season pickups like Lewis, Richardson, Gudbranson and Zadorov, and tell me that’s not the case.

Just for clarification on my part. I recall Sutter didn't have control over call ups he said so himself when people wanted to call up Philip.