The Legend of Sam Bennett

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I think you are building a narrative to suit your own bias.

Hudler who had a previous career high of 57 points playing on a top flight Detroit team benefitted just as much if not more from getting to play with Monahan and Gaudreau. After that 76 point season with them he was out of the league 2 years later at 33 years old.

Cammalleri did so much to carry Monahan in those first 65 games that Burke could wrangle a 4th round pick for him in a bad draft as the best offer to move him. The same year he got a 2nd for trading Reto Bera. It was after this harsh reality that Camalleri realized he better start playing if he wanted to make a few more dollars to wrap up his career.

Sean Monahan played very well for the Flames in his first few seasons. It's not his fault that he's not MacKinnon, or Barkov...or even Lindholm, hence why those guys all got picked before him.

You previously claimed that you don't think injury has anything to do with his current state, and that's just flat out wrong. He was never going to be an elite player, but he certainly was a 30 goal scorer or close to it. The cumulative effect of the number of surgery's he has had is taking a toll. He's still decent on the PP when he has a bit more time and space, but you can tell at Even Strength he's down a step to the point where he can't use the skills he still has the same way he once could.

Sam Bennett on the other hand is a guy who's always going to have what's between his ears hold him back. Talented player who can do a lot of things. After their rookie seasons, I certainly thought Bennett was going to be the better player. He'll likely end up playing more games and possibly with more career points. But don't kid yourself, getting away from the pressure of being the highest pick in a hockey market served him well. Even today we're seeing that he still is having a tough time from him being the guy who holds himself back with some of his decisions.

No, I’m not building a narrative at all, I’m just calling it like I see it. I’ve been saying this for a long time even before Monahan’s injuries. I’ve seen plenty of games where Gaudreau and Monahan have been split up dating all the way back to 2016 and the answer has been there all along. I’ve mentioned the story several times where Glen Gulutzan was ready to bench Monahan for his poor play when Johnny Gaudreau was injured.

People can continue believing that injuries are the main reason why his game has dropped off a cliff. But I’ve been saying it almost since the beginning of this duo’s inception that Johnny Gaudreau was clearly the straw that stirs the drink between the Monny-Johnny combo.

Lastly, anyone that has watched Monahan’s game closely will see that his game has been cratering since the start of the 2019 calendar year, way before his hip injury was ever a thing. That was the true turning point of Monahan’s career, when teams started to defend that duo differently, not the injuries. Once the league finally figured them out, that spelled the true end of them.

As for the Sam Bennett talk, I’m not a huge Sam Bennett fan, so I’m not going to defend him to ends of the universe. For me it’s pretty simple, would I rather have him on the team having to deal with his issues or conversely, deal with Monahan and all his issues? The answer isn’t really close, I’d rather deal with Bennett because I know come play off time, Bennett would have upped the level of his play whereas I think the opposite will happen with Monahan if history suggests anything.

[GioforPM]

^^ Monahan and Bennett have pretty similar PO production. 21 in 30 and 24 in 35 respectively.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by dino7c

keep saying it, its a bad take.

Yeah he played with decent players...that doesn't mean you take everything away from him. What 20-30 goal scorer plays with bad players?

No, it’s not a bad take. His rookie season is constantly lauded for some reason, but it wasn’t anything special. He had 34 points and was a -20 back in 2013-14. However. The type of hockey that was played back then is considerably different today. The speed of the players, the checking we’re seeing, the game has never been faster and that hurts players like Monahan who lack in the mobility/puck handling department. That’s had the biggest net negative impact on his game IMO.

For once I’d like to converse with anyone who’s actually willing to analyze Monahan’s game rather than spout off the tired and simplistic “it’s because of his injuries “ bit. I even called it in the offseason when everyone was so convinced that he would have a better season in 21-22 because he wouldn’t be playing on a bad hip. I asked, “where is Sean Monahan going to get his goals without Gaudreau?” It’s a very fair question when his scoring has been as one dimensional as it has been throughout his career.

[PugnaciousIntern]

I expect Bennett will have a great game against us. Motivated Bennett is a force to be reckoned with

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

I expect Bennett will have a great game against us. Motivated Bennett is a force to be reckoned with

I believe he will be serving his suspension.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

I expect Bennett will have a great game against us. Motivated Bennett is a force to be reckoned with

I think he’ll be invisible.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, it’s not a bad take. His rookie season is constantly lauded for some reason, but it wasn’t anything special. He had 34 points and was a -20 back in 2013-14. However. The type of hockey that was played back then is considerably different today. The speed of the players, the checking we’re seeing, the game has never been faster and that hurts players like Monahan who lack in the mobility/puck handling department. That’s had the biggest net negative impact on his game IMO.

For once I’d like to converse with anyone who’s actually willing to analyze Monahan’s game rather than spout off the tired and simplistic “it’s because of his injuries “ bit. I even called it in the offseason when everyone was so convinced that he would have a better season in 21-22 because he wouldn’t be playing on a bad hip. I asked, “where is Sean Monahan going to get his goals without Gaudreau?” It’s a very fair question when his scoring has been as one dimensional as it has been throughout his career.

In other words "for once I wanted to converse with anyone who agrees with me".

[timbit]

Originally Posted by PugnaciousIntern

I expect Bennett will have a great game against us. Motivated Bennett is a force to be reckoned with

He was a little too Pugnacious, Inturn he is reckoning with a 3 game suspension.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^ Monahan and Bennett have pretty similar PO production. 21 in 30 and 24 in 35 respectively.

Well a few things to consider first, Monahan has always been this team’s #1 center, so he’s going to play more prime minutes, thus more points should actually be expected. Bennett on the other-hand was a rookie his first season and then mostly a bottom 6 role player in the other times, so the fact that their production is even close is more an indictment on Monahan.

Also, that comparison is just raw point totals without much context. In the playoffs, 5 on 5 play is paramount. So we further delve into the those numbers, we’d see that Sam Bennett has 14 points in 35 games whereas Monahan somehow sits at a paltry 4 points in 30 games.

Actually, now that I think about it, this explains the lack of Flames’ playoff success quite a bit. When your top line isn’t producing at 5 on 5, you’re just not going to win many playoff games/series.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Lastly, anyone that has watched Monahan’s game closely will see that his game has been cratering since the start of the 2019 calendar year, way before his hip injury was ever a thing. That was the true turning point of Monahan’s career, when teams started to defend that duo differently, not the injuries. Once the league finally figured them out, that spelled the true end of them.

Again, I don't really agree with all of that.

https://thewincolumn.ca/2021/05/13/b...ough-injuries/

This lists like 5 other surgery's he had, and doesn't even deal with a back issue that kept him out of the World Cup of Hockey at that start of the 2016 season, all before the hip was an issue and prior to that magical day the league just figured him and Gaudreau out for good.

He's always had limitations as a player in that he was never a great skater, a guy who intimidated his opponents, or could handle the puck anywhere. So as soon as he starts to lose anything physically it's going to show up.

In hindsight you might easily identify a guy with a more limited skill set would have a shorter shelf life. But to know that the drop would happen when it did, and that hard is far less certain than you pass it off to be.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Well a few things to consider first, Monahan has always been this team’s #1 center, so he’s going to play more prime minutes, thus more points should actually be expected. Bennett on the other-hand was a rookie his first season and then mostly a bottom 6 role player in the other times, so the fact that their production is even close is more an indictment on Monahan.

Also, that comparison is just raw point totals without much context. In the playoffs, 5 on 5 play is paramount. So we further delve into the those numbers, we’d see that Sam Bennett has 14 points in 35 games whereas Monahan somehow sits at a paltry 4 points in 30 games.

Actually, now that I think about it, this explains the lack of Flames’ playoff success quite a bit. When your top line isn’t producing at 5 on 5, you’re just not going to win many playoff games/series.

It’s totally fair to look deeper than the counting stats. But in doing so, keep in mind Monahan was injured in most of those PO games as well. And no, Bennett wasn’t strictly bottom six in the POs. He got elevated once time (and also benefitted from a lower line as far as checking was concerned).

As for even strength versus power play, no, POs are won and lost on the power play.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I believe he will be serving his suspension.

Oh boy I missed something.

Thanks

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In other words "for once I wanted to converse with anyone who agrees with me".

No, actually, the exact opposite. I would like someone to bring up some counter points that could lead to an actual discussion outside of the blanket “it’s because he’s injured” statement. It’s super bland and lazy IMO.

I’ve already said it many times in the past, Monahan has very limited ways in which he can score goals. It’s either wide open in the slot or in or around the goal mouth. He doesn’t get a lot of breakaways, doesn’t go end to end, no wrap arounds, can’t score from distance, no tip-ins and etc etc. Is it really a shock to anyone that he's struggling to score? Not to me, I called it. If someone else has another thought, I’d be interested to hear it out.

I will say this though to be fair, he’s a better playmaker then he gets credit for. His vision is quite good and he can make some pretty nice passes from time to time, if the team can find a way to get more out of his vision, then that might help to alleviate some of his offensive struggles at even strength.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^ Monahan and Bennett have pretty similar PO production. 21 in 30 and 24 in 35 respectively.

This is absolutely true. But...

One player is on a downward trajectory.
One player earns quite a bit less, even after a big raise.
One player impacts playoff games in different ways than just scoring.
One player has 8 even strength goals in the PO's, the other has 4.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is absolutely true. But...

One player is on a downward trajectory.
One player earns quite a bit less, even after a big raise.
One player impacts playoff games in different ways than just scoring.
One player has 8 even strength goals in the PO's, the other has 4.

All true. It’s just not as one sided as people suggest.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Again, I don't really agree with all of that.

https://thewincolumn.ca/2021/05/13/b...ough-injuries/

This lists like 5 other surgery's he had, and doesn't even deal with a back issue that kept him out of the World Cup of Hockey at that start of the 2016 season, all before the hip was an issue and prior to that magical day the league just figured him and Gaudreau out for good.

He's always had limitations as a player in that he was never a great skater, a guy who intimidated his opponents, or could handle the puck anywhere. So as soon as he starts to lose anything physically it's going to show up.

In hindsight you might easily identify a guy with a more limited skill set would have a shorter shelf life. But to know that the drop would happen when it did, and that hard is far less certain than you pass it off to be.

If you have strong minds in management, then you should be able to pick up on these things. It’s their job after all. All they do is watch and analyze players during games, practices, training and etc. I’m sure these guys talk about all kinds of things and I’m sure the that duo has been talked about in their meetings.

To me, that Gaudreau-Monahan duo never functioned like a true winger-center combination to begin with. You had the primary playmaker on the wing who fed it to the center to score rather than the other way around. Worked for a while, but it’s so easy to defend when you can crowd the winger and he’s essentially pinned to the boards and only had one outlet.

You could see how opposition defenses were defending Gaudreau when he has the puck, they’d place their back check between Gaudreau and Monahan ehich essentially cut off that option, then they’d have the dman front Gaudreau and pick him off near the blue line. Over time, teams learned that you don’t lunge at Gaudreau because he could make you look bad one on one, but if you contained him along the boards and pinch off all his outlets and just give him the dump in, then that line was screwed because they had very little ability to retrieve the puck back. That was end of this duo, they were so reliant on the rush and once that was gone, they were done.

Surely management saw this.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, it’s not a bad take. His rookie season is constantly lauded for some reason, but it wasn’t anything special. He had 34 points and was a -20 back in 2013-14. However. The type of hockey that was played back then is considerably different today. The speed of the players, the checking we’re seeing, the game has never been faster and that hurts players like Monahan who lack in the mobility/puck handling department. That’s had the biggest net negative impact on his game IMO.

For once I’d like to converse with anyone who’s actually willing to analyze Monahan’s game rather than spout off the tired and simplistic “it’s because of his injuries “ bit. I even called it in the offseason when everyone was so convinced that he would have a better season in 21-22 because he wouldn’t be playing on a bad hip. I asked, “where is Sean Monahan going to get his goals without Gaudreau?” It’s a very fair question when his scoring has been as one dimensional as it has been throughout his career.

lol shows what you know about hockey

He was a rookie on a terrible team...don't give me plus minus.
He had 22 goals as an 18 year old rookie "nothing special"

I get he is not the player he once was, no need to take away his past results.

I wish the Flames had a rookie on pace for 22 right now...guys like Zegras might get there this season.

[FBI]

Bennett in on a beauty tic tac toe play..

[FlamingHomer]

Are we going to do one of these for Curtis Lazar? We was also underutilized in Calgary and is now lighting it up in Boston.

[blender]

Beauty goal by Bennett!