30th Anniversary of The Trade™

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by TheChief

This trade was before my time as a Flames Fan. To me though (correct me if I'm wrong ) it signaled the end of a era of dominance and the beginning of a lengthy dark time for a franchise. Not long after many of the other cup heroes had left and the young guns were born.


Its funny looking back on the worst trades of all time and arguably you could say we have had 3 of the top 5.


Older Flames and NHL watchers will tell you that the flames were gifted a cup by St.Louis by fleecing their GM. (Mullen/Gilmour/Nattress), but in same token we traded away to them one of the best goalscorers in history in Hull. Some of my older friends will claim we wouldn't have won the cup without Ramage but I digress



Gilmour/Hull/Phaneuf, in my opinion 3 of the worst 5 trades in NHL history.

Not really Flames still had Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Suter, Maciness, Fleury they were a good team, they should have had a better playoff fate in 1994 and 1995. It was really from 1996 onward the dark times began

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[TheChief]

Looking back how bad is the Mullen trade at the draft? A second round pick is what we got for him a year after the cup triumph, one season removed from 100+ points...

From Joe Mullens Wiki Page:



Though he played in his second All-Star Game in 1990,[22] Mullen's production fell by 41 points, to 69, and he failed to score at least 40 goals for the first time in six seasons.[4] Concerned about his age, the Flames chose to trade the 33-year-old Mullen following the season.[24] He was sent to the Pittsburgh Penguins in a draft day trade on June 16, 1990, in exchange for Pittsburgh's second round selection.[25]

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheChief

This trade was before my time as a Flames Fan. To me though (correct me if I'm wrong ) it signaled the end of a era of dominance and the beginning of a lengthy dark time for a franchise. Not long after many of the other cup heroes had left and the young guns were born.


Its funny looking back on the worst trades of all time and arguably you could say we have had 3 of the top 5.


Older Flames and NHL watchers will tell you that the flames were gifted a cup by St.Louis by fleecing their GM. (Mullen/Gilmour/Nattress), but in same token we traded away to them one of the best goalscorers in history in Hull. Some of my older friends will claim we wouldn't have won the cup without Ramage but I digress

The common factor is the guy doing the fleecing - Fletcher.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Gilmour trade one of the worst ever no doubt. It was bad at the time and it as it aged, it got even worse.

Phaneuf looked almost as bad at the time, but got better with age. Still, should have been able to get more for him. Not an all time bad trade though IMO.

The Hull trade is different. Do they win the Cup without Ramage who was a solid addition? Who knows but I think you can argue that Hull should have fetched more, even at the time.

With Suter injured, I doubt they do.
Banners fly forever. You can't question that trade as it gave the Flames their only cup. Do they win without Ramage? Not sure they do. But we know they won it with him and that's all that matters.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

With Suter injured, I doubt they do.
Banners fly forever. You can't question that trade as it gave the Flames their only cup. Do they win without Ramage? Not sure they do. But we know they won it with him and that's all that matters.

I couldn't agree more I'd never take it back. But arguably, you should have gotten Ramage ++ for Brett Hull.

If Smyl scores on his breakaway, that trade is probably looked at as one of the worst of all time.

But he didn't. It was undoubtedly the rest gained from having a competent backup in Rick Wamsley that allowed Vernon to make those saves in OT.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

With Suter injured, I doubt they do.
Banners fly forever. You can't question that trade as it gave the Flames their only cup. Do they win without Ramage? Not sure they do. But we know they won it with him and that's all that matters.

Agreed. It is fun to wonder what Hull or another asset could have been turned into if he had turned into a 70 goal scorer here, but he probably wouldn't have had the perfect storm to do that (Oates and Jeff Brown and not much else except rookie BrindAmour).



Savard for Z

Giguere for 2nd

Could argue both of these are worse than the Hull and Phaneuf trades.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I would rank the worst trades as follows:

1. Gilmour
2. Savard
3. Mullen (they also traded Sarge for a 2nd which wasn't great either)
4. Giguere
5. Regehr to Buffalo
6. Bouwmeester (didn't need to happen as he had a 1 year left)
7. Stralman/Lydman (putting these together as they are very similar in that a quality dman was traded for next to nothing, seemed like they didn't align to Sutter's approach to D but they both went on to be long time quality NHLers)
8. Phaneuf (this was a bad deal because they should have gone for quality not quantity)
9. Hrdina for Kyte

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This is a really interesting question.

The caveats with the Hull and Phaneuf trades mitigate them a bit.

Selanne, Roy, Neely, Messier are all pretty brutal (though I'd need to freshen up on contract statuses and the other considerations there)

Thornton is up there. Middleton for Hodge, Chara plus a first for Yashin, Dionne to the Kings, Luongo to Florida (the first time), Pens: Naslund for an unknown, Jagr for nothing much.

[dirk diggler]

I like many others on here was ecstatic that the Flames won the cup in 89. such horrible asset management not only with the Gilmour trade but pretty much every decent player afterwards. The only real value the flames got for any of these players was Niuwendyk but they almost screwed that up by wanting Todd Harvey instead of Iginla. They also did ok with Fleury getting Regehr but thats about it. If Fletcher would have stayed on, the dark days of the Young Guns era may never have happened.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would rank the worst trades as follows:

1. Gilmour
2. Savard
3. Mullen (they also traded Sarge for a 2nd which wasn't great either)
4. Giguere
5. Regehr to Buffalo
6. Bouwmeester (didn't need to happen as he had a 1 year left)
7. Stralman/Lydman (putting these together as they are very similar in that a quality dman was traded for next to nothing, seemed like they didn't align to Sutter's approach to D but they both went on to be long time quality NHLers)
8. Phaneuf (this was a bad deal because they should have gone for quality not quantity)
9. Hrdina for Kyte

No Iginla?

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Before the Gilmour trade, I believe there was only one game 7 OT loss and that was against the Oilers.

You'd think a team that won it all wouldn't have a psychological barrier about getting past the first round but something was obviously wrong.

I agree, but it seems the 1990 series against the Kings really messed the team up and then the Oilers series the year after cemented that. It was a fragile core. The 1988 sweep against the Oilers and don't forget, it was another Game 7 OT that if it went the other way would have been disastrous in '89. Flames had 43 more points than the Canucks that season.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No Iginla?

I don't consider the trade itself terrible because the highly restrictive NTM basically limited what could be done.
The mistake was not trading him a year earlier to maximize the value.

But as a trade in and of itself - it was what it was. Hard to extract value when the guy would only go one place.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

3-1 Flames won game 2 and if there was instant replay back then Flames may have won game 1

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We were up 3-0 in the 1st period of game 7.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would rank the worst trades as follows:

1. Gilmour
2. Savard
3. Mullen (they also traded Sarge for a 2nd which wasn't great either)
4. Giguere
5. Regehr to Buffalo
6. Bouwmeester (didn't need to happen as he had a 1 year left)
7. Stralman/Lydman (putting these together as they are very similar in that a quality dman was traded for next to nothing, seemed like they didn't align to Sutter's approach to D but they both went on to be long time quality NHLers)
8. Phaneuf (this was a bad deal because they should have gone for quality not quantity)
9. Hrdina for Kyte

Vernon to Detroit was a huge mistake! Chiasson was decent but Trevor Kidd WAS NOT ready and was never really ready for the NHL.
We would have at least 4-5 more playoff series wins with Vernon in net.

[FlatLandFlamesFan]

Giguere trade was in fear of losing him in the expansion draft iirc

[Nadal Fan]

Flames have made more Cup finals than the Leafs since that trade

For me if I could go back in time and stop one trade from happening, I would stop Jason Weimer for Sandy McCarthy and draft picks. The Lightning would use one of those picks to take Brad Richards. If the Flames don't make that trade, no way they don't win the Cup in 04.

Also I'd like to add trading away Rob Niedermayer , not because he was anything special. But because when Scott was a free agent IIRC he choose to sign in Anaheim because he wanted to win a Cup with his brother. He stays here we have a good chance of signing him.

[TheChief]

Looking back on the dismantling of the great 89 team you can clearly see how the dark days of the franchise became...


Mullen -Nicolas Perreault
Loob - Retired to Sweden
Gilmour - ...
Nieuwendyk - Iginla/Millen
MacInnis - Phil Housley/Steve Begin/John Tripp
Suter - Patrick /Zalapski /Nylander
Hrdina - Jim Kyte
Otto - UFA
Roberts - Cassels/Giguere
Patterson - Future Considerations
Fleury - Regehr/Corbet/Belak
Hunter - Carey Wilson
McCrimmon - David Harlock
Macoun - ...
Nattress - ...
Berezan - MacLellan / Reichel
Murzyn - Kevin Guy/Ron Stern
Ramage - Kent Manderville
Tim Hunter - Expansion
Vernon - Chaisson

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Thornton is up there. Middleton for Hodge, Chara plus a first for Yashin, Dionne to the Kings, Luongo to Florida (the first time), Pens: Naslund for an unknown, Jagr for nothing much.

Luongo and Jokinen for Kvasha and Parrish is particularly insane.


3OA (C) and 4OA (G) from 1997 draft for #65 (LW) and #79 (RW) in the 1996 draft. (trade happened around 2000 draft).


Parrish had managed 50 goals across his first two seasons, but Jokinen's underwhelming numbers were still better than Kvashas at the time. Parrish did score at a reasonable clip for the Isles, but was ultimately traded WITH Sopel for: Jeff Tambellini and Dennis Grebeshkov.

Kvasha ended up traded for a 3rd rd pick (Brad Marchand), but NYI traded it down for a 4th and 5th who managed 1 NHL game between them.


Amazingly, the Panthers still missed the playoffs for 10 years...the Isles missed in 2001, but went to game 7 in 2002 and made 3/4 next years playoffs.

Jokinen didn't really bloom until 02-03, and the Isles of course acquired him from the Kings, but with a few different choices NYI could have entered the cap era with the following guys in their teens/early 20s:

Luongo

Spezza and Chara (instead of Yashin)

Heatley or Gaborik (instead of Dipietro)

Jokinen (or keep Palffy and Smolinski)


HOF Goalie; 1-2 punch at C, scoring winger and a cornerstone D...coulda been a dynasty.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I couldn't agree more I'd never take it back. But arguably, you should have gotten Ramage ++ for Brett Hull.



If Smyl scores on his breakaway, that trade is probably looked at as one of the worst of all time.



But he didn't. It was undoubtedly the rest gained from having a competent backup in Rick Wamsley that allowed Vernon to make those saves in OT.

Hull was a nobody in 1988, he was the son of All Star Demi God other than that he had the potential to become a great player. Rob Ramage was a great defenseman, at the time the trade was good. Give it two years that trade never happens.

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[GioforPM]

^^ yeah and I know people say “Dipietro would have been great but for injuries” . But bird in the hand in Luongo versus a verify good prospect in Dipietro who you can either trade as a pick or after you draft him, or else like you say - draft Heatly or Gaborik.