[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Calgary '89]

I dunno if this has been brought up because I didn't read all 45 pages, but has anyone talked about how the City is now moving the goalpost again in this negotiation? It's a terrible look for a city trying to be world class.

Outside of this being about the Flames or CSEC, this is a city that has long been making efforts to bring more people and companies here to visit or to stay. What does it say about our city when a new Mayor decides to 'call out' a partner on twitter because they don't like the new deal she's all of a sudden trying to restructure. It's a reckless and dangerous move IMO.

If any of you actually think a billionaire will entirely fund an arena in Calgary which in turn will also grow the tax base and attract world class shows then you must have an amazing impression of Calgary.
We're not a major North American metropolis so when it comes to things like head offices and sports teams we have to compete with a number of cities throughout the continent. Reneging on a deal that took 4 years to put together doesn't send a good message at all.

I hope they find a way to fix this cuz I honestly think losing them is a very real option right now.

[GioforPM]

^^ It’s far from obvious that the goalposts are being moved, as opposed to expense categories already agreed to now being firmed up and identified with more specificity.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

I dunno if this has been brought up because I didn't read all 45 pages, but has anyone talked about how the City is now moving the goalpost again in this negotiation? It's a terrible look for a city trying to be world class.

Outside of this being about the Flames or CSEC, this is a city that has long been making efforts to bring more people and companies here to visit or to stay. What does it say about our city when a new Mayor decides to 'call out' a partner on twitter because they don't like the new deal she's all of a sudden trying to restructure. It's a reckless and dangerous move IMO.

If any of you actually think a billionaire will entirely fund an arena in Calgary which in turn will also grow the tax base and attract world class shows then you must have an amazing impression of Calgary.
We're not a major North American metropolis so when it comes to things like head offices and sports teams we have to compete with a number of cities throughout the continent. Reneging on a deal that took 4 years to put together doesn't send a good message at all.

I hope they find a way to fix this cuz I honestly think losing them is a very real option right now.

How do you think, the process of moving the team were to proceed?

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^^ It’s far from obvious that the goalposts are being moved, as opposed to expense categories already agreed to now being firmed up and identified with more specificity.

The Mayor said they've identified new costs and that she's amazed that the Flames are willing to walk away over 1.8% of the total costs. It's a shakedown through and through.

Imagine operating that way in your regular work life? I'd lose all my clients.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

The Mayor said they've identified new costs and that she's amazed that the Flames are willing to walk away over 1.8% of the total costs. It's a shakedown through and through.

Imagine operating that way in your regular work life? I'd lose all my clients.

They agreed to categories of costs. The Mayor specified what they are now. And you are somehow shocked that construction costs have gone up?

Costs change in almost every project like this. And, yeah, my business often operates that way. The parameters change.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

How do you think, the process of moving the team were to proceed?

I think there's a few ways, either the Fertita guy in Houston makes an offer to buy the franchise and moves them or Kansas City 'invites' the franchise to relocate the their new arena.

That's just 2 cities in the west that we know want a team and already have downtown arenas ready to go.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They agreed to categories of costs. The Mayor specified what they are now. And you are somehow shocked that construction costs have gone up?

Costs change in almost every project like this. And, yeah, my business often operates that way. The parameters change.

They've addressed the costs increases and the Flames already agreed to eat most of them. This is no longer a 50-50 deal like it was when it was signed. The Mayor has said they've identified new costs, let's not ignore that.

Whether you or anyone here voted for her is not the question. It's more about how Calgary's being represented in a deal with a long standing partner. Vilifying them for not spending an extra 1.8% of the project costs is kinda dirty.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

They've addressed the costs increases and the Flames already agreed to eat most of them. This is no longer a 50-50 deal like it was when it was signed. The Mayor has said they've identified new costs, let's not ignore that.

Whether you or anyone here voted for her is not the question. It's more about how Calgary's being represented in a deal with a long standing partner. Vilifying them for not spending an extra 1.8% of the project costs is kinda dirty.

You won't win this argument.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

You won't win this argument.

and who says I'm trying to win an argument? I'm opening a discussion about how our Mayor has dealt with this deal in her 2 months in office.

[burn_this_city]

Maybe do like everyone else did and read the 45 pages. It's been covered numerous times already.

The mayor isn't the dictator of the city managing everything, this stuff is dealt with by the City Administration. Second, you can fall for the noise, but its increasingly looking like the Flames excuses are nonsense and its because of material inflation to the core project. Murray Edwards doesn't want to eat $100MM in project overruns, he slept on the downturn in construction costs to nickle and dime the city.

[Rutuu]

The most annoying part of this whole ordeal is going through the "oh no they're going to leave" hysteria all over again.

Nenshi saw through it and mocked it in the media eventually getting a better deal than the team up north. There was a great post a few pages back that went through the financial scenarios on a sale, and a move...both nuked $100m-$200m of value for the organisation. There are four members of the ownership group, at some point they'll realise the value they'd destroy when the city digs in.


Being a "world class city" is all about standing up to hard negotiating tactics. Calgary is a great place, and the flames are a part of that, they're not driving the bus to that greatness though. Have some confidence.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

I think there's a few ways, either the Fertita guy in Houston makes an offer to buy the franchise and moves them or Kansas City 'invites' the franchise to relocate the their new arena.

That's just 2 cities in the west that we know want a team and already have downtown arenas ready to go.

So you're familiar then, with how the BoG has to approve the move, after exhausting all local attempts at purchasing the team?

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Maybe do like everyone else did and read the 45 pages. It's been covered numerous times already.

The mayor isn't the dictator of the city managing everything, this stuff is dealt with by the City Administration. Second, you can fall for the noise, but its increasingly looking like the Flames excuses are nonsense and its because of material inflation to the core project. Murray Edwards doesn't want to eat $100MM in project overruns, he slept on the downturn in construction costs to nickle and dime the city.

Can't I come in, like I have newfound information 50 pages in, and drop a hammer that "moving is very real?

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Maybe do like everyone else did and read the 45 pages. It's been covered numerous times already.

The mayor isn't the dictator of the city managing everything, this stuff is dealt with by the City Administration. Second, you can fall for the noise, but its increasingly looking like the Flames excuses are nonsense and its because of material inflation to the core project. Murray Edwards doesn't want to eat $100MM in project overruns, he slept on the downturn in construction costs to nickle and dime the city.

Lol why read 45 pages when i can get a fully non-biased breakdown like that.

Overruns were always expected, and in order to take advantage of the downturn in construction the deal would've had to been signed in 2014 or so.

Just so we're clear, it's the city who's nickle and diming the CSEC right now.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

The most annoying part of this whole ordeal is going through the "oh no they're going to leave" hysteria all over again.

Nenshi saw through it and mocked it in the media eventually getting a better deal than the team up north. There was a great post a few pages back that went through the financial scenarios on a sale, and a move...both nuked $100m-$200m of value for the organisation. There are four members of the ownership group, at some point they'll realise the value they'd destroy when the city digs in.


Being a "world class city" is all about standing up to hard negotiating tactics. Calgary is a great place, and the flames are a part of that, they're not driving the bus to that greatness though. Have some confidence.

I keep thinking about your market analysis back when the Flames we’re thinking about moving to Portland before 2004. I’m not sure much has really changed for alternative cities.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

So you're familiar then, with how the BoG has to approve the move, after exhausting all local attempts at purchasing the team?

Are you under the impression this couldn't happen?

Look, at this point with the expected inflation over the next few years it's likely any arena deal would've fallen through. This Mayor ended up giving the Flames an out by banging her climate drum like she's been doing since day 1.

I'll ask this: at this point what do you think is more likely, the Flames staying at the Saddledome for years to come or the franchise moving to an already built arena elsewhere?

Both parties have leverage, only one seems to be using it well.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

Lol why read 45 pages when i can get a fully non-biased breakdown like that.

Overruns were always expected, and in order to take advantage of the downturn in construction the deal would've had to been signed in 2014 or so.

Just so we're clear, it's the city who's nickle and diming the CSEC right now.

This is a 2-3 year project, the downturn started at the end of 2014. They talked about CalgaryNext in 2015 instead of coming up with a realistic proposal. Went back to the drawing board for a few years and then had a year long negotiation with the city.

If they had started a two or three years ago they would have had a fair degree of certainty on costs. Inflation has only really picked up since last summer on construction materials. Now things have blown up and they're getting cold feet and trying to go back to the well for more money.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Calgary '89

Are you under the impression this couldn't happen?

Look, at this point with the expected inflation over the next few years it's likely any arena deal would've fallen through. This Mayor ended up giving the Flames an out by banging her climate drum like she's been doing since day 1.

I'll ask this: at this point what do you think is more likely, the Flames staying at the Saddledome for years to come or the franchise moving to an already built arena elsewhere?

Both parties have leverage, only one seems to be using it well.

I'm well familiar.

You came in way late, with alot of hyperbolic posting, with not alot of reading. Nothing you've stated hasn't been debated, and debunked. I'll get you started, posts; #747, #748. #775, #881, and finally #702.


Honestly, you just come across as lazy, and dramatic.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

This is a 2-3 year project, the downturn started at the end of 2014. They talked about CalgaryNext in 2015 instead of coming up with a realistic proposal. Went back to the drawing board for a few years and then had a year long negotiation with the city.

If they had started a two or three years ago they would have had a fair degree of certainty on costs. Inflation has only really picked up since last summer on construction materials. Now things have blown up and they're getting cold feet and trying to go back to the well for more money.

Who's going back to the well for more money?


The way I read it, the city said the Flames just need to pay an extra $9.7M above what they've already agreed to. Maybe you know something the rest of us don't.

[Calgary '89]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

I'm well familiar.

You came in way late, with alot of hyperbolic posting, with not alot of reading. Nothing you've stated hasn't been debated, and debunked. I'll get you started, posts; #747, #748. #775, #881, and finally #702.


Honestly, you just come across as lazy, and dramatic.

Lol thanks for your feedback pal. I'm responsible for what I say, not for what you interpret.

If you really think the city has all the leverage they need and that they they'll hammer out a deal then great! My opinion is different and I don't have confidence in City Hall to get it done!