[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[CaptainCrunch]

When does the Flames lease on the Saddledome expire, I'm just curious about that.



I mean that defines a time line of or else negotiations between the Flames and the City.


Both sides are being foolish and probably dishonest in presenting their cases in the court of public opinion.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Envitro

My point was not whether public libraries should exist or not, whether I ever use one again in my life or not, but should they be grandiose and cost hundreds of millions of dollars?

The debate over "public good" is multi-faceted.

Our tax dollars have been used for all sorts of public works projects that I'll never ever see any benefit from, yet when we're talking about building a new publicly-owned event center facility that will be used for many things other than just hockey games, and is 50% funded by a private enterprise then I guess we're not having the same conversation then.

Yeah, it burns me up that Big Library and the local tycoon who is profiting from people checking out books gets a free building. Very similar parallel to NHL franchises.

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I'm pretty sure it's not a function of who is paying for what here at this point. The city is imposing new conditions as part of permitting that didn't exist in July when the deal was struck.

Sure, ultimately they'll have to figure out who pays for this as partners, but this is a net-new cost that wasn't even remotely considered at the time because it was never identified as a requirement by the city. All of the sudden now it is.

I think that's the issue at the heart of it. I'd imagine CSEC is thinking "what's next?"

The city's environmental policy from 2012 states:
"
The City of Calgary will:
• Integrate environmental considerations
into all decisions and approvals relating to
growth, planning, infrastructure, transportation
and development."

That they require some kind of green initiative/climate consideration on a project of this scale should not be a surprise

Sure, the "what" wasn't determined ahead of time, but how could it be? The planning department isn't involved in the arena's development at all, outside of the permitting processes.

Further to that, if you look back at one of Bunk's posts, he indicates that the City suggested the solar, but didn't mandate it. CSEC voluntarily agreed to it, provided they could address it before occupancy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlatLandFlamesFan

Dear GOD what a Fn' letdown , after all these years ...
I will still blame those idiots in Edmonton the deal they gave Katz was obscene

For me this reeks of how costs have changed in the last 2 years and CSEC looking for an out on a deal that keeps getting more and more pricey for them.
And the City going F U your lucky we gave you the deal we did.

well Merry Christmas all

I don't think that we can discount this. The negotiations with Katz for arena funding was just basically the city and province throwing pillows on the ground and lying down a$$ up.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There are some weird analogies in here. Forget how rich anyone is or how much the money is or what the money is for.

The fact is simple. The deal was agreed on in July. Cost overruns would still be split 50./50 even if it's a billion. But add-ons, that's a breach and that's the line drawn by CSEC. What if the city keeps adding more? Like underground C-Train station, or pedestrian bridge or bike lanes right to the door o whatever?

Will I forget a billionaire is getting a hockey rink at a discounted price that me and my fellow Calgarians will pay for and see no financial benefit from?

No, I don't think I will.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Yeah, it burns me up that Big Library and the local tycoon who is profiting from people checking out books gets a free building. Very similar parallel to NHL franchises.

CSEC is not making money hand over fist with any or their teams. They run a tight ship with their teams to avoid being in the red but they are not in it for the money at all. Being part of an elite club is primarily the reason most of these people own the teams. They have afforded Calgarians the privilege of being able to watch and support the NHL, CFL, WHL, NLL, etc.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Envitro

My point was not whether public libraries should exist or not, whether I ever use one again in my life or not, but should they be grandiose and cost hundreds of millions of dollars?

The debate over "public good" is multi-faceted.

Our tax dollars have been used for all sorts of public works projects that I'll never ever see any benefit from, yet when we're talking about building a new publicly-owned event center facility that will be used for many things other than just hockey games, and is 50% funded by a private enterprise then I guess we're not having the same conversation then.

The self-declared libertarians love spending money on private sport venues...

I'm starting to think libertarianism is just the ideology of the selfish

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There are some weird analogies in here. Forget how rich anyone is or how much the money is or what the money is for.

The fact is simple. The deal was agreed on in July. Cost overruns would still be split 50./50 even if it's a billion. But add-ons, that's a breach and that's the line drawn by CSEC. What if the city keeps adding more? Like underground C-Train station, or pedestrian bridge or bike lanes right to the door o whatever?

To be fair, I don't think we can actually say that what as happened is a legal breach at this point.

You are making way too many assumptions in this post to be taken as fact

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

CSEC is not making money hand over fist with any or their teams. They run a tight ship with their teams to avoid being in the red but they are not in it for the money at all. Being part of an elite club is primarily the reason most of these people own the teams.

Being part of the cartel is a big part of the value even if they break even. And the city subsidizing their membership in the cartel also has a large economic value.

I'm not saying the Flames are Purdue pharma. But comparing them to a library was pointless.

[burn_this_city]

Flames delayed and screwed themselves, the last 6 years were the perfect time to put contractors over a barrel and get cost certainty. Now we're in an inflationary environment with no chance to bring it in for the original value.

They've probably been looking for an out over the last 6 months when we started to see material costs and deliveries spiral out of control.

Gondek should call their bluff and agree to eat the $10MM

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Being part of the cartel is a big part of the value even if they break even. And the city subsidizing their membership in the cartel also has a large economic value.

I'm not saying the Flames are Purdue pharma. But comparing them to a library was pointless.

People don't realize that an NHL team in your city is not a god given right even in Canada. You need an owner that's going to invest his own money in it and one that's not a flake like what's been going on in Arizona and some other markets. This isn't the NFL where owners are making sizeable profits. The TV deals are weak and half the league plays in half empty arenas. This isn't about the rich getting richer. It's about a partnership to keep the NHL in the city of Calgary.

[the_only_turek_fan]

We used to be place that could do anything and now we can’t even get a building built.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Looch City

Yes that's exactly it. And don't forget these people will be raking in the cash with ticket prices going up when the new arena is built.

There's absolutely no reason to grovel to these billionaires.

You can take that stance if you want but don't cry when you have the worst sports facilities in NA

(Not you specifically just in general)

The city could easily knock out the climate garbage

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

We used to be place that could do anything and now we can’t even get a building built.

This is so true. It's kind of sad really.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People don't realize that an NHL team in your city is not a god given right even in Canada. You need an owner that's going to invest his own money in it and one that's not a flake like what's been going on in Arizona and some other markets. This isn't the NFL where owners are making sizeable profits. The TV deals are weak and half the league plays in half empty arenas. This isn't about the rich getting richer. It's about a partnership to keep the NHL in the city of Calgary.

Yep, also the city getting a building they need anyway and having someone else paying the majority. Many cities wish they had a CSEC.

[RoadGame]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

The city's environmental policy from 2012 states:
"
The City of Calgary will:
• Integrate environmental considerations
into all decisions and approvals relating to
growth, planning, infrastructure, transportation
and development."

That they require some kind of green initiative/climate consideration on a project of this scale should not be a surprise

Sure, the "what" wasn't determined ahead of time, but how could it be? The planning department isn't involved in the arena's development at all, outside of the permitting processes.

Further to that, if you look back at one of Bunk's posts, he indicates that the City suggested the solar, but didn't mandate it. CSEC voluntarily agreed to it, provided they could address it before occupancy.

Is there any documentation in the public domain that backs this up? I trust Bunk but it's hard to argue this point with non-CPers with what appears to be available information. I just went looking to see if approved development permits are published online and couldn't find them through this tool.

https://developmentmap.calgary.ca/

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

People don't realize that an NHL team in your city is not a god given right even in Canada. You need an owner that's going to invest his own money in it and one that's not a flake like what's been going on in Arizona and some other markets. This isn't the NFL where owners are making sizeable profits. The TV deals are weak and half the league plays in half empty arenas. This isn't about the rich getting richer. It's about a partnership to keep the NHL in the city of Calgary.

This team is going nowhere.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is so true. It's kind of sad really.

Just looking at it from a macro level. Forget who did what, etc… this just makes the city look amateurish.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

We used to be place that could do anything and now we can’t even get a building built.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is so true. It's kind of sad really.

This is an utterly absurd statement. From my Beltline condo balcony, I can see at least a dozen cranes and construction sites. Private buildings funded by private money get built all the time in this city. CSEC and their billionaire owner could have had their new arena finished years ago if they had been willing to pay for it entirely themselves instead of extorting municipal taxpayers out of hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for their private, for-profit building.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

We used to be place that could do anything and now we can’t even get a building built.

I'd be way more proud to be a city who told team owners to go #### themselves when it came to corporate welfare.