[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[SuperMatt18]

Personally I think the road/sidewalk right of way issues sound like a problem the city should be covering. If they plan to re-develop that area in any way that will likely have to be done anyways.

‪I don’t fully fault CESC for not wanting to cover additional city infrastructure costs, especially if they agreed to cover the overrun on the arena itself, which is likely inevitable.

And let’s be honest climate mitigation sounds fully made up.

[Freeway]

It's kinda weird that the City didn't mention the additional $25.5 million in design-related costs that CSEC cited.


It's kinda weird that the City and CSEC don't have the same price tag for the various things identified during the DP process as needed for the facility.

[Imported_Aussie]

Based on that CSEC statement it looks like those new costs are a red herring. What this is about is not liking the first deal and now fearing rising costs, so using the first piece of objectionable change, however trivial in the scale of the whole project, to scupper the deal.

No matter what now, any move by the city, including covering all those recent cost adds looks like capitulation. Edwards has played this well if his goal was to get out of the deal and blame someone else

[Red Slinger]

It looks like CSEC and the City may not even agree, at least publicly, on what the total costs are and what is being proposed. We're back to the bad old days of public negotiations and propaganda.

It's kinda funny/sad how so many jumped in feet first to pick a side or jump off the deep end (relocation? really?) without even knowing the details of the original deal or the changes.

[devo22]

I haven't read about this stuff in detail, so I won't point fingers at any side here. Just disappointing that the deal is dead in the water and lines seem to have been drawn in the sand. I'm watching from afar obviously, but Calgarians and this fanbase deserve better than this.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

Based on that CSEC statement it looks like those new costs are a red herring. What this is about is not liking the first deal and now fearing rising costs, so using the first piece of objectionable change, however trivial in the scale of the whole project, to scupper the deal.

No matter what now, any move by the city, including covering all those recent cost adds looks like capitulation. Edwards has played this well if his goal was to get out of the deal and blame someone else

And she was stupid enough to provide the ammunition for it in her made up fairytale catch phrase crusade.

This was unfortunately exactly what she needed was a reality check.

[taffeyb]

Originally Posted by Yoho

And she was stupid enough to provide the ammunition for it in her made up fairytale catch phrase crusade.

This was unfortunately exactly what she needed was a reality check.

If I recall, CSEC agreed to the 50/50 split to keep the project moving along. When the city cracked the door open a bit, CSEC took the opportunity to bail and spread out the blame

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Yoho

And she was stupid enough to provide the ammunition for it in her made up fairytale catch phrase crusade.

This was unfortunately exactly what she needed was a reality check.

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "fairy tale catch phrase"?

I don't understand the vitriol directed so personally at the Mayor. Everyone here understands that she is only one vote on Council, right?

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "fairy tale catch phrase"?

I don't understand the vitriol directed so personally at the Mayor. Everyone here understands that she is only one vote on Council, right?

She had one vote on council for both iterations of the arena deal AND one vote on the planning commission that approved the project.


Heck, she phoned into the planning commission meeting and kept things on the rails when several commission members railed against aspects of the project they didn't like that were already addressed in the conditions.


To suggest she didn't support the project simply isn't the case. She definitely disliked specific aspects of the project's deal, though.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

It's kinda funny/sad how so many jumped in feet first to pick a side or jump off the deep end (relocation? really?) without even knowing the details of the original deal or the changes.

Agreed. And people were complaining about the Mayor having an emotional knee jerk reaction

[Flames1217]

I am pretty sure that CSEC is not backing out for the additions alone but the potential future forced add-ons.

The deal has been accepted on multiple occasions and there is no reason that the deal keeps being amended. The city pushing this narrative is a bit absurd to be honest.

I understand that the event center will drastically benefit both parties and I still think a deal is going to be struck but this is a tactic by CSEC. They want to put their foot down now to avoid additional costs once the project is started. Easier to say no now than to say no once the shovels are in the ground.

They have both been playing hardball since the beginning so this is nothing new.

[Slava]

I read the statement from the CSEC and it seems that the rationale for them pulling out is sensible. They're saying that the $19m wasn't included, the original target has grown by $25.5m and they're worried about future escalation. If that's all true (and I don't know that it is/isn't), it seems like a smart idea to cool your jets when the costs have risen by $45m in 5-6 months.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/csec...re/c-329204382

In summary, the primary reasons for this difficult decision include:

1) Introduction by the City of significant infrastructure costs ($15 million) and climate mitigation costs ($4 million); costs not previously identified as project costs by CMLC or the City nor included in the $608.5 million target budget in July 2021.

2) Continued cost escalation experienced since the approved budget of $608.5 million in July 2021. It has since grown to $634 million based upon design development that was completed in October 2021.

3) High level of risk associated with future project cost increases in part due to supply chain issues and commodity price escalation as a result of the impact of COVID.

[tkflames]

If the city were responsible for cost overruns and the Flames asked for the city to fund a gigantic $10M Flames Logo on the side of the building we would be losing our minds.

If Pike is right and the city is responsible for costs associated to meeting the exit time frame of the spec (i.e. the pathways and road infrastructure), then this implies that these overruns are scope creep.

If the permitting requirements added a previously unestimated cost of solar panels or solar powered lights, this is an over run, however, given that the city issues the permit and makes the stipulation, it's an overrun with an obvious conflict of interest.

It's embarrassing that the parties were not able to work through this and let the deal fall apart and then tried to sprint back to taxpayers to be first to tell their side instead of solving it. This is where the Flames and Jyoti FAIL as people working in the interest of all of us.

I suspect there is some truth that the flames are using this as an excuse to get put of the deal...but given the value increase and real estate value potential of the surrounding projects I don't think they have much benefit to waiting longer for inflation/escalation to subside. I could equally see this as a new mayor thinking she can pork up this project with all of her special interests/objectives after the deal was made and the Flames not wanting to go down that road.

Overall...an embarrassing saga that speaks to the skills and interest of the people involved to find a common middle ground for the benefit of everyone...

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Seriously seems like this city has been talking about a new arena for the Flames for almost 20 years now. The Saddledome will have doubled in age from when the talks began.

[puckbrain]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

The Flames and the City had a deal in place. Gondek is now moving the goal posts.

4.1 million dollars for climate mitigation?
I have never heard of something so stupid in my life. Please anyone, explain this to me!

Murray Edwards is a billionaire. So that means he is corrupt and an ahole. No argument here.

This is all on Gondek though.

If you did not like the arena deal I understand. Yet the City agreed to it.
If I am Murray Edwards I now sue the City. He will win!
Climate mitigation?

Gondek is going to learn a big lesson here really soon.

I am sure others that didn’t like the deal will post here. I get that. Edwards is a ###### bag fine. The City had a deal in place and it is Gondek breaking that deal. 18 months of dealing with Nenshi, and now this on a arena deal.
This is like buying new fighter jets for our military.

Even if the Flames move. Calgary will build a new arena. Every city does. Yet tax payers will pay for all of it. I would prefer a partner to split the difference.

Climate mitigation? Is that the next tax after the carbon tax?
Welcome to the new Nenshi! We had a deal in place. Gondek wants to change that.

I want to be in the media!

if the flames move, nhl will never come back calgary...

you can bet on that..

[BurningSteel]

Poor Ken King. Got this done despite his personal battles only to have it scuttled.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Yeah I have a feeling that this deal is dead until construction costs come down.

Then maybe talks start up again.

Yeah but who's to say costs will come down any time soon?

[PeteMoss]

Negotiation nonsense. I'll get done. Fans shouldn't bother concerning themselves with this.

[TheSquatch]

Just as a cost-of reality check, I know a home builder who has seen an increase in lumber 150% or so, like 2 years ago, the framing package for one of their homes was 16,000 dollars and this year it was 41,000 for the same lumber. That's not all building supplies, but nothing has gotten cheaper.

I'd be pulling out too. They can't do what they thought they could with the money they had, and it's not by just a tiny bit.

[Manhattanboy]

City planners continue to be out of touch with reality. Why anyone would ever want to develop anything of substance in this town is beyond me. You think you have your project costed, spend millions on plans and a DP application only to let the ivory tower social engineers at the City in the name of vague concepts like climate mitigation (what a joke) loose and impose millions more on your project, because they can. I don’t blame Edwards at all for telling the City (as planning authority) to F off.