2021/2022 English Premier League

[cheevers]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

No group of media rally around any perceived slight or unfairness like the ones with an association with liverpool, csnt even blame it on following what klopp does because he wasnt there when they went after evra for being the victim of some racism

https://twitter.com/user/status/1472927569955729417

I don't know, have you heard the Tottenham fans on here?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

I struggle to see the argument saying these calls could somehow be correct. Kane leaps into the tackle and puts spikes into his shin. Jota is setting his feet to shoot and get crushed.

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

I've seen that be both a red and a yellow in the past and generally it's the ref's discretion. So really that could go either way, and I don't think it only being a yellow early in a match when he hadn't been warned prior is that shocking of a decision. Could have been a red, could have been a yellow.

That likely should have been a penalty, but the goal should have been a hand ball...so that evens out in the big scheme of things.

Personally though I actually don't mind that not being called a penalty. I hate when players slow down and stop up for contact in the box like that, and ideally refs would not call those as often and it wouldn't happen as much. Similar to how the NBA is not calling those stopping and get hit in the back fouls anymore this year after Harden made a mockery of it.

But under the rules as they are though that's a penalty.

Reffing was poor with bad decisions both ways but in the end 2-2 is probably the fair result in that game.

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

No group of media rally around any perceived slight or unfairness like the ones with an association with liverpool, csnt even blame it on following what klopp does because he wasnt there when they went after evra for being the victim of some racism

Very very similar to the Edmonton Oilers fans and media IMO

[Slava]

Originally Posted by cheevers

I don't know, have you heard the Tottenham fans on here?

I’m assuming that’s directed at me, and all I can say is that this is a discussion board. Sure, my views are biased, but it’s not like I’m way out to lunch here. There’s a grey area there and just because Klopp was raging about it doesn’t mean it’s a penalty.

And speaking of that, Pochettino got a three game ban for confronting a referee, so I’m sure we should hear about something similar for Klopp any moment now?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Slava

I’m assuming that’s directed at me, and all I can say is that this is a discussion board. Sure, my views are biased, but it’s not like I’m way out to lunch here. There’s a grey area there and just because Klopp was raging about it doesn’t mean it’s a penalty.

And speaking of that, Pochettino got a three game ban for confronting a referee, so I’m sure we should hear about something similar for Klopp any moment now?

Cant be reviewed because he got a Yellow card for dissent.

[Slava]

Clattenberg says that it should’ve been red: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/59736316

One thing he mentions that we probably all agree on though, is he says in Greece they release the audio of the VAR decisions. They have the audio feed in rugby and in all honesty I think it makes a huge difference and would be a great positive. It just makes everyone have a better understanding of why they make some of the decisions they do.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Personally though I actually don't mind that not being called a penalty. I hate when players slow down and stop up for contact in the box like that, and ideally refs would not call those as often and it wouldn't happen as much.

That's a strange take on two fronts.
Firstly he was steadying himself to shoot and was barged over.
Secondly even if he had just stopped, so what? It's still a clear and obvious foul.

Are you trying to say that shielding the ball should be an invite to be bundled over with no foul issued?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That's a strange take on two fronts.
Firstly he was steadying himself to shoot and was barged over.
Secondly even if he had just stopped, so what? It's still a clear and obvious foul.

Are you trying to say that shielding the ball should be an invite to be bundled over with no foul issued?

I think there are times where a player “shielding” the ball is inviting contact and looking for a PK.

The more I watch the one and the more I think I was wrong in my initial take. I’m not sure Jota is fully stopping here but I do think he was a little off balance, and wasn’t quite ready or set to take a shot. And the barge was reckless and took him right out.

But I do think the scenario that’s similar to what the NBA is cracking down on this year where a player dead stops to initiate contact when a player is chasing and creates contact could be an area where it’s not called a PK.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think there are times where a player “shielding” the ball is inviting contact and looking for a PK.

Agreed there but I don't think that is the case here nor can it be suggested he just got touched or went down easily.

But the shielding thing is no different than any other part of the pitch. It's perfectly within the rules and not open to referee interpretation.

Last season Pogba got told off by Jon Moss for taking the piss after taking the ball to the corner flag and shielding it during the latter stages of a game and getting fouled. Wasn't doing anything illegal yet Moss felt he needed to comment?

Refs just need to ref within the rules.

[Bagor]

The Spurs appealing against being kicked out of Europa conference.

They need to get their story right. First it was email stating that they were good to go at noon on gameday. Then they weren't good to go at 7pm just as Rennes were arriving in London. Now saying that they knew the night before that they knew that the game wasn't going to be played?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Personally though I actually don't mind that not being called a penalty. I hate when players slow down and stop up for contact in the box like that, and ideally refs would not call those as often and it wouldn't happen as much. Similar to how the NBA is not calling those stopping and get hit in the back fouls anymore this year after Harden made a mockery of it.

I heard a commentator say, if it's called a penalty, it's a soft penalty. If it isn't called, then it shouldve been a penalty.

It is such a borderline penalty half the time but them are the breaks.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Very very similar to the Edmonton Oilers fans and media IMO

I have always associated Liverpool to the Oilers - and not in a bad way. Liverpool is a northern town with a huge, rabid fan base backed by lots of past glory. It makes sense

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Cappy

It is such a borderline penalty

Yeah. It's hard to make out if (a) he got the ball or not or (b) if there was contact.

[SuperMatt18]

To me these are the 50/50 decisions that happen all the time over the course of a season, but it's magnified because it was a big game, and because there were multiple high profile 50/50 decisions within the same game.

Kane: Red vs Yellow - that's a 50/50 decision that's very dependent on the ref
Jota Penalty: 50/50 decision that I know I've seen called both ways
Salah Hand Ball: Another 50/50 decision that some refs might catch it hitting his arm with his arm outstretched, some won't
Robertson Red: Reckless kick that probably deserves a red, but a different ref could have seen it as a yellow as he is making a play on the ball.

Honestly I think if you switch the time of the game of when each incident happened and the Roberston tackle is at the 20th minute, then he probably see's yellow. And if Kane is at the 77th minute he probably gets the direct red.

The time of the game, emotion on the field, and what's been said to the players through the course of the match all play into the ref decisions of red vs yellow.

Overall not the best reffed game, but also just a high event game with a lot of big decisions.

[Bagor]

Kane. Var needs to step in. Definite red.

Jota penalty. No brainer. Not even close to the ball and bundles him over. What part of that is not a clear foul.
Var should have stepped in.

Above two. Tierney had clear views of and screwed up badly. But the this is exactly what Var is for.

Shoulder's handball. Presuming neither Tierney or linesman simply didn't see it which makes it more forgivable. Missed call. Nothing Var can do.

Someone explain how Jota isn't a clear and obvious foul?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Kane. Var needs to step in. Definite red.

Jota penalty. No brainer. Not even close to the ball and bundles him over. What part of that is not a clear foul.
Var should have stepped in.

Above two. Tierney had clear views of and screwed up badly. But the this is exactly what Var is for.

Shoulder's handball. Presuming neither Tierney or linesman simply didn't see it which makes it more forgivable. Missed call. Nothing Var can do.

Someone explain how Jota isn't a clear and obvious foul?

I think by the rule of the law both Kane and Jota should have went in Liverpool's favour.

My point was more that in terms of on field refing decisions I think those are calls that go either way a lot of the time. I've seen tackles not as bad get straight reds, and I've seen worse tackles get yellow.

In terms of the Jota foul all I can think of is that they think he got enough of the shoulder to classify it as a shoulder barge, and not from the back.

In both cases though I can see why the ref on the field might have sided the way he did, but in both cases VAR should have stepped in to reverse decision if VAR is supposed to remove the doubt and make the decisions based on the rule of the law.

But I think the point stands in that these are decisions that can go either way, nothing is ever called 100% of the time no matter how the rulebook says. Maybe it's more 70/30 instead of 50/50 but there is still a lot of grey in the rulebook, I think the bigger thing is that there were 4 high profile decisions like this in the same game, which is what magnifies the decisions.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Honestly I think if you switch the time of the game of when each incident happened and the Roberston tackle is at the 20th minute, then he probably see's yellow. And if Kane is at the 77th minute he probably gets the direct red.

I think you nailed it

[J epworth]

I find it weird how quiet teams are about Covid in the premier league. Just watching the difference in coverage for the Flames outbreak vs the Aston Villa one, there is like no one talking about what is happening for Villa. Just game cancelled, okay, well is Boxing Day going to be okay? Crickets.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Honestly I think if you switch the time of the game of when each incident happened and the Roberston tackle is at the 20th minute, then he probably see's yellow. And if Kane is at the 77th minute he probably gets the direct red.

The time of the game, emotion on the field, and what's been said to the players through the course of the match all play into the ref decisions of red vs yellow.

You're stretching now. All that doesn't account for Var not getting involved.
Or, are you suggesting that they didn't get involved too because it was too early in the game?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by J epworth

I find it weird how quiet teams are about Covid in the premier league. Just watching the difference in coverage for the Flames outbreak vs the Aston Villa one, there is like no one talking about what is happening for Villa. Just game cancelled, okay, well is Boxing Day going to be okay? Crickets.

You cant test positive if you dont test at all...

[Slava]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

To me these are the 50/50 decisions that happen all the time over the course of a season, but it's magnified because it was a big game, and because there were multiple high profile 50/50 decisions within the same game.

Kane: Red vs Yellow - that's a 50/50 decision that's very dependent on the ref
Jota Penalty: 50/50 decision that I know I've seen called both ways
Salah Hand Ball: Another 50/50 decision that some refs might catch it hitting his arm with his arm outstretched, some won't
Robertson Red: Reckless kick that probably deserves a red, but a different ref could have seen it as a yellow as he is making a play on the ball.

Honestly I think if you switch the time of the game of when each incident happened and the Roberston tackle is at the 20th minute, then he probably see's yellow. And if Kane is at the 77th minute he probably gets the direct red.

The time of the game, emotion on the field, and what's been said to the players through the course of the match all play into the ref decisions of red vs yellow.

Overall not the best reffed game, but also just a high event game with a lot of big decisions.

And really if the Kane/Jota calls go the other way, and VAR takes a look they probably uphold those calls. But, at the same time, them being a yellow/non-call aren't egregious, which is why VAR probably looked and left things as they were.

Regardless, we don't need the full inquisition every time things don't go Liverpools way. This has been completely over the top.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You're stretching now. All that doesn't account for Var not getting involved.
Or, are you suggesting that they didn't get involved too because it was too early in the game?

I don’t think it’s a stretch at all. Time of the game 100% plays into the refs decision.

A red card is going to need to be more clear and obvious at the 20th minute when it’s the players first warning, than the 80th minute when it’s close to the end of an emotional filled game that you don’t want to get out of hand.

Game management happens in all sports when it comes to fouls.

As for VAR they need to clearly see something “clear and obvious” to overturn the refs decision, and in Kane’s case they thought a yellow was fair. Had he been given a red that probably would have been upheld as well.

I said by the book of the law then Jota’s penalty should have been overturned but there is a discussion with the ref going on there too. As somebody already mentioned if you want to make this more clear then the audio of the discussion from the VAR ref and on field ref should be shared like in Rugby.

I don’t think there was some anti-Liverpool conspiracy here, I think it was a high event game with a lot of calls that could have went either way. If Kane gets a red in the 20th minute, and Jota gets that penalty then there would be calls for a reffing bias against Tottenham. Just the nature of those decisions in a big game like this.

In the end I'm comfortable with Kane not getting a red and I've seen tackles like that get a yellow card, Jota probably should have gotten a penalty, the second Liverpool goal should have been a handball, and I think Robertson's foul could have been a yellow too. It wasn't a well reffed game, but there were an abnormal amount of big decisions in that game, and in the end 2-2 was probably fair.