[News] Coyotes on the Verge of Being Locked Out

[powderjunkie]

It's worth noting that city council and probably city administration personnel have also changed many times throughout this saga...everyone is saddled with the mess their predecessors left them.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Glendale was supposed to keep losing millions a year after losing hundreds of millions over the course of the lease agreements? It's not their problem the Coyotes don't have an exist strategy ready.

What, you mean like moving to a different arena in another location? You literally just blamed the Coyotes for doing that. What exactly do you think they should do?

They've only been talking about it since 2017 when Bettman said the team cannot and will not remain in Glendale when the first talk of a new arena elsewhere in the market started.

Well, we all know that nothing can possibly stop a new arena deal from happening at the drop of a hat. Look at Calgary, after all. The Flames decided they needed a new building, and boom, they moved into it the very next day.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What, you mean like moving to a different arena in another location? You literally just blamed the Coyotes for doing that. What exactly do you think they should do?

'Don't quit a job unless you have another lined up.'

'Don't screw yourself out of an arena lease without being ready to move into another one.'

If Meruelo wasn't a ####tier owner than the carousel of owners that preceded him, maybe things would look different. Glendale is tapped out, Meruelo wasn't paying his bills, the team and league has made it well known they want to leave and are actively pursuing it, but don't have anything lined up and had no lease security until that time comes. That's their #### up and isn't Glendale's problem.

Well, we all know that nothing can possibly stop a new arena deal from happening at the drop of a hat. Look at Calgary, after all. The Flames decided they needed a new building, and boom, they moved into it the very next day.

The Flames didn't start entering negotiations to build an arena in another city after announcing their intention to move, while their lease was year-to-year with a unilateral ability for the city to end it, while skipping out on payments and etc, etc, etc.

[Jordan!]

If the Tempe arena gets approval and moves forward, the league will allow them to play literally anywhere.

[troutman]

Bettman not closing the door on NHL's return to Quebec City, but nothing imminent

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...city-1.6282552

Bettman, however, assured the media gathered for the meeting that the Coyotes "are fine, and they will be fine," before explaining why the deck continues to be stacked heavily against Quebec City — despite its hockey-mad fan base and the 18,259-seat Videotron Centre that opened in 2015.

"When the Nordiques moved, it was a function of two things," he said. "At the time, there was no prospect of a new building. And ... despite everybody's best efforts, nobody wanted to keep owning a team in Quebec City.

"The world's maybe changed since then, and I'm happy to listen and figure out what it all means."

[powderjunkie]

Of course he won't say anything to undermine Arizona until there is no choice.

The Quebec quote is a bit interesting...they have both a new building and eager owners...

[Puppet Guy]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Of course he won't say anything to undermine Arizona until there is no choice.

The Quebec quote is a bit interesting...they have both a new building and eager owners...

If I remember correctly, the league wanted a market, an owner and an arena when considering expansion/relocation. QC has all three.

I won't be holding my breath for a team in Quebec, but it's fun to hope.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Of course he won't say anything to undermine Arizona until there is no choice.

The Quebec quote is a bit interesting...they have both a new building and eager owners...

It also leaves the potential hotbeds of Houston and Portland open for future expansion when (or if) the economic climate around pro-sports normalizes again.

There is the problem that a relocation fee for new owners would likely be in the same neighbourhood for an expansion fee. Not sure if the proposed Quebec ownership group is prepared to pay that much.

I agree that we are going to going to get carefully filtered information from Bettman regarding Arizona. Have to take it with a grain of salt. If it came down to desperation and the Coyotes had to do a red-eye relocation or fold, Quebec (or another owner in another city) might be able to leverage a discount. The NHL may therefore want to hedge their bets now and accept a reduced relocation fee. It kind of sucks for Seattle and Vegas who had to pay through the nose, but times changed quickly.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

He gets credit for them staying. All the small-market Canadian teams would have folded or relocated long ago if not for the salary cap.

Bettman had nothing whatever to do with the Winnipeg and Quebec teams leaving Canada. He was powerless to stop them, because absolutely no one wanted to own an NHL team in those cities at that time. And that was because they had old arenas (which he had no power to replace), weak economies (which he had no power to strengthen), and small populations (which he had no power to increase), at a time when player salaries were rapidly increasing (which started before he had anything to do with the NHL, and continued until he could persuade the owners and PA to accept a salary cap). The only thing he had to do with those relocations is that he was commissioner at the time they happened.

I bet you think Justin Trudeau is personally to blame for COVID because it happened while he was in power.

I one day hope for a job review where I can tell them about something I did 25 years ago and they still give me a glowing review for it.

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Bettman was hired to make as much money as he can for the NHL Owners. he has done a masterful job of that. He hasn't done anything to really help hockey in Canada. Somehow he was powerless to do anything for Canadian teams, but he has all the resources to save Arizona over and over.

If it wasn't for the salary cap, many teams would have folded - not just Canadian teams.

I'm not sure why you think Justin Trudeau has something to do with this issue.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Your first point is dead on. You maintain franchise value (and therefore expansion fees) by ensuring scarcity.

I’m quite certain that the NHL has analysis that supports the dilution of an extra franchise is more then compensated by increased revenues.

If franchises don’t move you leave expansion fees as the only option. And with the latest Forbes analysis, it’s pretty clear that Bettman has done well by his owners.

Salary cap
Stabilized franchises
Sweet arena deals


To be an NHL owner…

Bettman has done a poor job compared to basically any other sports commissioner during his tenure outside of MLB.

In 1996 - the San Antonio Spurs were sold for $76 million. In 1999 - the Washington Capitals were sold for $85 million. Relatively close values.

The most recent purchases - NBA - Utah Jazz $1.7 billion. Pittsburgh Penguins ~$900 million.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It also leaves the potential hotbeds of Houston and Portland open for future expansion when (or if) the economic climate around pro-sports normalizes again.

There is the problem that a relocation fee for new owners would likely be in the same neighbourhood for an expansion fee. Not sure if the proposed Quebec ownership group is prepared to pay that much.

I agree that we are going to going to get carefully filtered information from Bettman regarding Arizona. Have to take it with a grain of salt. If it came down to desperation and the Coyotes had to do a red-eye relocation or fold, Quebec (or another owner in another city) might be able to leverage a discount. The NHL may therefore want to hedge their bets now and accept a reduced relocation fee. It kind of sucks for Seattle and Vegas who had to pay through the nose, but times changed quickly.

Maybe this is what you mean, but the total cost for team + relo fee to be in the $550-600M range. Say $350M for the Yotes +200M relo fee.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

In 1996 - the San Antonio Spurs were sold for $76 million. In 1999 - the Washington Capitals were sold for $85 million. Relatively close values.

I'm sure Ted isn't feeling too bad about his investment when the Capitals are worth nearly 1B more than when he bought it 20 some years ago.

(For what it's worth the Spurs were sold in 1993)

[timun]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Bettman has done a poor job compared to basically any other sports commissioner during his tenure outside of MLB.

In 1996 - the San Antonio Spurs were sold for $76 million. In 1999 - the Washington Capitals were sold for $85 million. Relatively close values.

The most recent purchases - NBA - Utah Jazz $1.7 billion. Pittsburgh Penguins ~$900 million.

NBA revenues in 1993: ~$1B
NHL revenues in 1993: ~$400M

NBA revenues in 2018-19: $8.8B
NHL revenues in 2018-19: $5.1B

NBA YoY growth: ~8.4%
NHL YoY growth: ~9.9%

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Pittsburgh Penguins ~$900 million.

Consider the Penguins have filed for bankruptcy twice in their history, getting locked out by the IRS pre-Bettman and most recently in 1998, I'm not sure this is especially bad. Of course it took some wheeling and dealing by Lemieux but by 'paying' 20M for his stake in the Penguins that two decades later is 20x that amount, I'm sure he's pretty happy with the league too.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by timun

NBA revenues in 1993: ~$1B
NHL revenues in 1993: ~$400M

NBA revenues in 2018-19: $8.8B
NHL revenues in 2018-19: $5.1B

NBA YoY growth: ~8.4%
NHL YoY growth: ~9.9%

There's also always going to be the barrier of entry in the sport too that makes a direct comparison pretty useless. A lot of the increase in valuation is because of population increase, more disposable income, leading to higher TV revenues but it still comes back to get people involved in the sport in the first place.

If you're in a southern state and you got pavement, for $100 more you can get a hoop and basketball. You're set to have kids play basketball.

Some empty space and all it takes is $25 for a bat and ball and another $10 each for a used mitt and you got a baseball game.

You got a field, $20 for a football and you can have kids play a variation.

For hockey you just need a couple 100 grand for an arena, 10K for a Zamboni, and another $100 for each kid to get the equipment.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

There's also always going to be the barrier of entry in the sport too that makes a direct comparison pretty useless. A lot of the increase in valuation is because of population increase, more disposable income, leading to higher TV revenues but it still comes back to get people involved in the sport in the first place.

If you're in a southern state and you got pavement, for $100 more you can get a hoop and basketball. You're set to have kids play basketball.

Some empty space and all it takes is $25 for a bat and ball and another $10 each for a used mitt and you got a baseball game.

You got a field, $20 for a football and you can have kids play a variation.

For hockey you just need a couple 100 grand for an arena, 10K for a Zamboni, and another $100 for each kid to get the equipment.

So you’re comparing a zambonied arena to a dirt field for pickup baseball? How about $20 for used skates, $10 for used stick and find a frozen pond somewhere?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So you’re comparing a zambonied arena to a dirt field for pickup baseball? How about $20 for used skates, $10 for used stick and find a frozen pond somewhere?

Lots of frozen ponds in southern states.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Lots of frozen ponds in southern states.

Also, basketball is a sport in every school league. Pretty much free access to organized sport. Hockey not so much.

[dino7c]

even here in the great white north more kids play soccer than hockey...its obviously a way harder sport to participate in for many reasons

[Reggie Dunlop]

What was the timeline on the Atlanta-to-Winnipeg move?

The Thrashers were sold May 31, 2011, and the Jets started training camp a scant 15 weeks later?

Things can happen quickly.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by dino7c

even here in the great white north more kids play soccer than hockey...its obviously a way harder sport to participate in for many reasons

Also, how much merchandising revenue does the NBA make compared to the NHL?

The most important metric in the growth of the sport is viewership and sales numbers.