[PGT] Hurricanes 2 - Flames 1 (OT)

[robertsfanatic]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

I thought Dube was terrible in the OT...kept losing the puck and was quite careless. Flames need a lot more puck control, patience and care in the 3 on 3...they keep trying to be way too fancy-pants and threw the puck away a number of times just out of pure carelessness. Given that it's a possession period, they can't be doing that if they want to win.

good point so maybe not Dube then - just thinking of someone else that can skate with the puck.

[Knightslayer]

Think it may be time for Mangiapane to get on the first pp unit. Monahan has been pretty useless on the pp and had a bunch of turnovers yesterday.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Have to disagree with this completely.

Lewis has been tremendous IMO. No he will never light up the score sheet but there is very little to not like about his defensive game.

Plays the right way and eats some important minutes without the coach having to worry about him.

Way better than I expected, at least thus far, and think he may be the best off-season addition thus far when factoring his role and cost.

Just a really smart player who does his job night in and night out.

Fair. Neither guy has been bad, and the effort is always 100%. Responsible and hard on the puck, rarely makes mistakes. Great team player, no doubt, he and Richardson both.

Not singling him out. I’d like to see lines 3+4 with more balance, speed and off wave threat. Maybe that means one of the old guys on each (Lucic on 3, Lewis on 4) mentoring younger players with offensive spark.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Is Monahan a relative of yours or something?

Your stretching to excuse everything he struggles at is incredible. Can't acknowledge any negatives ever.

Ahhh - the old “you must be related” argument. Always a winner.

No, I’m just a guy who likes honesty in the analysis and not narrative driven by poor analysis. Monahan has struggled this year. But on a night when the puck didn’t go in for anyone, it’s funny to single out a guy that didn’t really do anything wrong like blow a coverage, or miss a wide open chance.

Reliance on +/- or giveaway stats which are wonky is not a decent analysis IMO. Face offs are a better stat but still depend a lot on opposition and wingers.

It’s just so predictable after a loss - the same people go after the same targets no matter what actually happened in the game.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Fair. Neither guy has been bad, and the effort is always 100%. Responsible and hard on the puck, rarely makes mistakes. Great team player, no doubt, he and Richardson both.

Not singling him out. I’d like to see lines 3+4 with more balance, speed and off wave threat. Maybe that means one of the old guys on each (Lucic on 3, Lewis on 4) mentoring younger players with offensive spark.


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Neither guy provides any offence at all (though I tend to disagree on Lewis’ speed - he doesn’t seem slow to me). That said, how much offence does any 4th line produce?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

He had 1 shot on goal with almost 5 minutes of pp time, lost more face-offs then he won and was underwater on giveaways.

That's bad luck? He's our highest paid center.

No - please read what I wrote. His bad luck was on his minus.

He had one shot on goal. Originally the complaint was that he had one shot on the power play. The same as a bunch of other players. And reliance on giveaway takeaway stats is just plain bad analysis.

His face off stats weren’t great. You’d have to look at how many were lost, to whom and whether his wingers didn’t help to see if that stat means anything.

If you are relying on shots when most top six players got one or two, giveaways (which were supposedly a bad stat when applied to Gaudreau) etc, you just aren’t looking at the game.

ETA: go look at the game takes for some actual stats.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Neither guy provides any offence at all (though I tend to disagree on Lewis’ speed - he doesn’t seem slow to me). That said, how much offence does any 4th line produce?

True. I guess I’m suggesting that an ideal scenario — and what Sutter ultimately wants I think — is to have a top line and then 3 interchangeable other lines, or close to it. That means aggressive puck pursuit, strong D, and generating some chances too. Line 4 is currently not that.

I think that’s what we saw from the canes last night and it was very effective. I was super impressed by them, and specifically how interchangeable the forward units seemed to be.

I guess I’m in the minority thinking that I thought the Canes were the marginally better team last night. But I’d also say it was the best game the flames bottom 6 have played recently.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigRed

True. I guess I’m suggesting that an ideal scenario — and what Sutter ultimately wants I think — is to have a top line and then 3 interchangeable other lines, or close to it. That means aggressive puck pursuit, strong D, and generating some chances too. Line 4 is currently not that.

I think that’s what we saw from the canes last night and it was very effective. I was super impressed by them, and specifically how interchangeable the forward units seemed to be.

I guess I’m in the minority thinking that I thought the Canes were the marginally better team last night. But I’d also say it was the best game the flames bottom 6 have played recently.


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The Flames did have the better stats for the game. But they are definitely two teams built remarkably similarly, and that play a really similar style. Not surprising it came down to two tipped goals and an OT lucky/greasy goal.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

The flames are in familiar territory with me. When they play inspired hockey they out shoot and out chance but don’t have the game breakers to break through strong defensive structures.

We had 5 miserable pps. The Carolina unit I give them a lot of credit. Slavin is a beast. That whole team skates very well and knew when to use it to pressure us.

I think the flames out played them but that OT pp is where we should have beat them. How many times do we see a 4-3 pp against us and the team folds every time. Why didn’t we capitalize ? That stick lift on lindholm was perfectly timed and the puck leaves the zone, Pp over.

I echo the previous sentiments on an upgrade foe this group. They need a finisher with a big time shot.

The Vegas game was rough. The flames couldn’t cut through the meat of that team and a couple of bad bounces killed them that night. Sam Jose the flames PP woes strike again.

This game was more controlled by the flames but to put this on markstrom a shoulders and not an O fer pp effort is a mistake. Rasmus needs to be supplanted off that assignment. I don’t see what he does against better PKs. He has an ok shot that he never gets on net. He’s so one dimensional. Always going to pass it. No wrist shot. No one timer. This PP needs a shooting threat.

It was a good measuring stick game. The flames play a sound systematic game. They just don’t have much secondary scoring. Even their primary scoring can be iffy when the checking ramps up. I witnessed JG at least try to check his guy and strip them on the forecheck. Monny just flies by all the time. I know he’s tentative to hit people but I saw him hit one guy that game. I just think that poor guys body is not recovering enough for him to grow his game. His shot isn’t there. He’s indecisive.

MT looked faster out there. Maybe he was inspired to play in this one.

Eats bread didn’t inspire too much.

Coleman looks like he’s fighting it.

I can see why Carolina is a beast though. Slavin is a bigger and better version of tanev. Man they really hit with that pick.

It’s him and Aho. That guy is so smart and so competitive. Plus his extra gear he showed in OT is word class skating, edge work and speed. What a player. How did he fall to the second round? Puukjujarvi and Laine look like passengers compared to that guy. Laine has a shot but Aho ho Ho hold the phone is one of the best center ice skaters in the league hands down. I’d rather him than mcdavid. Aho competes all over the ice. He was a beast in the neutral zone. And what do they always say? Speed kills. We need some speed with poise and hands. Dube isn’t cutting it.

My friend says this team could use offence from the back end. He said Josi but I said good luck. But it got me thinking. This team needs a shooter. Who has a big shot? I thought hanifin was working on his shot. Try him at PP1. Or bring valimaki back and plug him in to pp1. We need a PP that can make life helll. Their PK 1 made our life hell.

Overall I was happy with the result since I have been anticipating this game for a bit. Good game except for the bounces. Learn the lesson and move on.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ahhh - the old “you must be related” argument. Always a winner.

No, I’m just a guy who likes honesty in the analysis and not narrative driven by poor analysis. Monahan has struggled this year. But on a night when the puck didn’t go in for anyone, it’s funny to single out a guy that didn’t really do anything wrong like blow a coverage, or miss a wide open chance.

Reliance on +/- or giveaway stats which are wonky is not a decent analysis IMO. Face offs are a better stat but still depend a lot on opposition and wingers.

It’s just so predictable after a loss - the same people go after the same targets no matter what actually happened in the game.

People don’t go after Monahan because of personal dislike for him. He’s just not getting it done and that’s been very consistent all year. The worst plus minus on the team by a wide margin is not a fluke IMO. There are advanced stats out there that show he is one of the worst 5 on 5 defenders in the league.

You certainly don’t have to agree with that but you have to admit that you spend a great deal of time here promoting his play.

Personally my thoughts on Monahan are all about the go forward. He needs to be better and maybe he will be as time goes on and his latest injury recovery progresses.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

People don’t go after Monahan because of personal dislike for him. He’s just not getting it done and that’s been very consistent all year. The worst plus minus on the team by a wide margin is not a fluke IMO. There are advanced stats out there that show he is one of the worst 5 on 5 defenders in the league.

You certainly don’t have to agree with that but you have to admit that you spend a great deal of time here promoting his play.

Personally my thoughts on Monahan are all about the go forward. He needs to be better and maybe he will be as time goes on and his latest injury recovery progresses.

Please point to all those posts. What I do is try and move from narrative to actual game analysis in a PGT. Go rewatch that game and tell me that it was Monahan (and his line) that was the reason they lost. Or even the reason the powerplay failed.

Last night 19, 4 and 55 were issues. Even though 55 scored (and 4 picked up an assist). That pairing struggled, so did Zadorov and Gudbranson on transition. And Tkachuk could not hit the net to save his life (except with his face).

ETA: I'm perfectly happy if they could manage to move Monahan. But his season performance and his salary have zippo to do with the game.

[Heavy Jack]

I think the difference last night was the Flames ran into a team that deploys similar tactics.
It speaks to so much 50/50 play and lots of chippy neutral zone hockey because both teams were pushing a high pressure defence. When this boiled the flames D over and got them skating backwards is when the flames got into trouble and the 1st and 3rd pairings had difficulties accounting for the speed of Carolina’s forwards as well as the pinches by the D.

And we still only lost in OT 2-1 lol.

Lots to like about last night too; the flames just need to keep playing their game and to try and hit a rhythm at home to take it to the next level and I have full confidence that this group can do that.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by timbit

Best team in the West...Best team in the East.

Best game I’ve seen this year.

Enjoyed it immensely.

Discussing with others at the game (therefore, no bias from the commentary, nor from complaints in the GT, or anything else, just observation)... pretty much everyone had the same opinion: fantastic hockey game, played at a very high pace, between two really good teams.

And the Flames were the better team, with significantly more grade A chances.

Really good game - would watch again.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rejean31

Hopefully they all watched that Aho goal in overtime. Sometimes you just have to crash the net. Flames don’t do that enough.

Lots of talk about what's wrong with the Flames on home ice. I have felt it for a long time, and last night it was REALLY prevalent:

At home, they pass way too much. They are always looking for the perfect paly, and often end up making one too many passes. On the road, they tend to keep it simpler, and crash the net more.

The PP in OT was a perfect example: they passes it around for the entire minute, and I am not sure if they attempted even a single shot.

Lots of people blame Andersson for this, and he is definitely a culprit. But I believe the entire team is guilty of it on home ice.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He was pretty unlucky to be on the ice for that goal against. He had nothing to do with it. I don’t know how they measure takeaways but he definitely caused some on the forecheck.

There was one play where he caught up to a guy from behind, lifted their stick, stole the puck, and turned around and went up ice.

If that isn't a takeaway, then there is no such thing as a takeaway.

I have never understood how giveaways and takeaways are awarded.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There was one play where he caught up to a guy from behind, lifted their stick, stole the puck, and turned around and went up ice.

If that isn't a takeaway, then there is no such thing as a takeaway.

I have never understood how giveaways and takeaways are awarded.

I remember that play. It's an example of why that stat is horrible (hits is another wonky one.

Plus it doesn't count stuff like when, say, Lucic hits a guy and the guy fumbles a puck and a Flame gets it.

And the more you carry the puck, I bet the more giveaways you are assessed because not every pass you make connects. That's why Gaudreau always had a big giveaway number.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lots of talk about what's wrong with the Flames on home ice. I have felt it for a long time, and last night it was REALLY prevalent:

At home, they pass way too much. They are always looking for the perfect paly, and often end up making one too many passes. On the road, they tend to keep it simpler, and crash the net more.

The PP in OT was a perfect example: they passes it around for the entire minute, and I am not sure if they attempted even a single shot.

Lots of people blame Andersson for this, and he is definitely a culprit. But I believe the entire team is guilty of it on home ice.

Mangiapane on the two on one!

I was watching from close to ice level and I could see why Andersson passed a lot on the PP - he doesn't often have a good shooting line. IMO their puck movement was slow which = opponents getting in lanes which = no shots.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion. But I don't think Markstrom is a big game goalie.

[Enoch Root]

is that necessary?

[djsFlames]

I don't want posters manifesting more playoff choking performances out of our goalies.

He's been lights out. So anything that deters that kind of posting.

Also its funny.