Valimaki: ‘Stupid’ that he’s sitting

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure it shuts down discussion ... isn't it just a response to people that is somewhat expected?

The guy knows more than any of us. Not going to say he's smarter as there is all kinds of "smart" but he's boots on the ground and the rest of us are watching games and going about or lives.

If Valimaki is sitting I think we can assume it's one of the following ...

1. He hasn't been better than Zadorov in Sutter's mind.
2. He's a toss up but tough love will make him better in Sutter's mind.

Pretty sure the guy isn't just scratching superior players because of a God complex.

Some coaches will let young players work through mistakes by continuing to play them. Others will pull them immediately and replace them with a proven veteran. Sutter is recognized as the latter.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Some coaches will let young players work through mistakes by continuing to play them. Others will pull them immediately and replace them with a proven veteran. Sutter is recognized as the latter.

I would agree.

But then he's developed quite a few great young players. Maybe it works!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by saillias

30 NHL coaches would probably do the same thing. Of course you play a guy with track record of NHL top 4 experience who is very solid defensively.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1460654898869989378

For your bottom pairing, why would you take that out of your lineup. I think it has to be injury to someone, or actually Gudbranson who comes out at this point for Valimaki to get back in the lineup.

Dude, appealing to facts is a conversation ender.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would agree.

But then he's developed quite a few great young players. Maybe it works!

There’s probably a balancing act on what you do based on context / situation. Sometimes he’s right, sometimes he’s wrong when he deploys such tactics.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

There’s probably a balancing act on what you do based on context / situation. Sometimes he’s right, sometimes he’s wrong when he deploys such tactics.

Well right now he has a lot on his side.

Zadorov has been better than expected
Zadorov/Gudbranson have better numbers than Valimaki/Gudbranson
The team is winning

I like Valimaki. I want him to play. I see the upside and think he could be a better option at the end of the year if he gets more ice time.

But it's working right now ... so I'm happy to see where he takes it.

[Knightslayer]

Is it working? Flames just lost 3 in a row with Zadorov in and beat a Ottawa team missing 12 players.

2 of those losses were a big part due to Zadorov.

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Is it working? Flames just lost 3 in a row with Zadorov in and beat a Ottawa team missing 12 players.

2 of those losses were a big part due to Zadorov.

So it was only Zadorov, the top players on the team don't have to have their top games going as well for the Flames to win every game

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Is it working? Flames just lost 3 in a row with Zadorov in and beat a Ottawa team missing 12 players.

2 of those losses were a big part due to Zadorov.

The team's 6th defenseman has a 54% xGF% in those four games, including two of them near 70% and he's the problem?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Is it working? Flames just lost 3 in a row with Zadorov in and beat a Ottawa team missing 12 players.

2 of those losses were a big part due to Zadorov.

They lost the same three games with every other player in the lineup being the same give or take a Pitlick/Duehr.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Did Kylington even play under Sutter last year? Hell Oliver might've gone a full calendar year without playing a game due to the pandemic shut down and late start last year. Now he's thriving.

Sitting out isn't the worst, if Valimaki hadn't done so much of it recently, injury, covid, I wouldn't be worried in the slightest. It's a long season, his chance will come and when he gets it he better make the most of it.

[Erick Estrada]

I'm one of those fans that much prefers young players getting ice time on the 3rd pairing or 4th line over vets but in this case I have no issues with him sitting. IMO he's been a major disappointment and the only thing he has going for him right now is his age and possibility to improve. He has the odd brief moment where you see a flash but it's surrounded by a lot of mistakes and poor play. It's really a shame he has to go through waivers as he badly needs to play in the AHL for a full season or more.

[D as in David]

Flames lose 3 games in a row while only scoring 4 goals total - must be a 3rd pairing defenceman's fault.

[Duffalufagus]

Remember when the reason we didn't pull the trigger on Stone was (in part) because we just couldn't add Valimaki to the package?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

Remember when the reason we didn't pull the trigger on Stone was (in part) because we just couldn't add Valimaki to the package?

I remember when they wouldn’t do a deal for a rental of Stone, who basically told them he wouldn’t re-sign afterwards.

[PepsiFree]

I remember when someone brought up the rumoured Stone trade and someone else correctly filled in the context of Stone not signing here… two weeks ago… and two weeks before that… and two weeks before that… and two weeks before that.

“Remember the Stone trade? I don’t really!” - One of CP’s greatest bi-weekly traditions.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Is it working? Flames just lost 3 in a row with Zadorov in and beat a Ottawa team missing 12 players.

2 of those losses were a big part due to Zadorov.

This legend grows every day, by next week they will be a junior B team

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I remember when someone brought up the rumoured Stone trade and someone else correctly filled in the context of Stone not signing here… two weeks ago… and two weeks before that… and two weeks before that… and two weeks before that.

“Remember the Stone trade? I don’t really!” - One of CP’s greatest bi-weekly traditions.

The problem was that Treliving didn’t use his Green Lantern powers to will Stone into calling him and being sold on Calgary as a destination.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well right now he has a lot on his side.

Zadorov has been better than expected
Zadorov/Gudbranson have better numbers than Valimaki/Gudbranson
The team is winning

I like Valimaki. I want him to play. I see the upside and think he could be a better option at the end of the year if he gets more ice time.

But it's working right now ... so I'm happy to see where he takes it.

Agreed.

I'd prefer Valimaki be playing, but to be honest he just hasn't been that good and hasn't been clearly better than Zadorov.

Zadorov hasn't been great visually either, but in terms of actual defensive zone impacts he still showing that he's doing a good job of limiting chances.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Did Kylington even play under Sutter last year?

5 of the 8 games he played in last season were after Sutter was hired.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Well while we're debating Zadorov vs. Valimaki, the Zadorov Gudbranson pairing has been among the top in the league in xGoals % (minimum of 75mins together).
Kylington - Tanev - 64.7%xG - 4th in the league
Zadorov - Gudbranson - 60%xG - 10th in the league
Hanifin - Andersson - 53.8%xG - 28th in the league
Valimaki - Gudbranson - 52.1%xG - 45th in the league

What's more the Zadorov - Gudbranson pairing is currently 4th in the league in expected goals against per 60. All things considered there's not much more you can ask for from your 3rd pairing.

So while both Valimaki and Zadorov played well with Gudbranson, as a pair it has been slightly better with Zadorov.

source

These statistics lack score-and-venue adjustments. Which is notable since

1) Zadorov has played the majority of his games at home, Valimaki on the road
2) The Flames have trailed in more games Zadorov has participated in, and led in more games Valimaki has participated in

Further, Valimaki-Gudbranson were utilized as a second pair in the Pittsburgh game, which in a small sample like this skews their stats (especially since Andersson-Tanev and Kylington-Stone both finished a lot of shifts in the defensive zone that game). Zadorov-Gudbranson have been utilized exclusively as a 3rd pair.