Valimaki: ‘Stupid’ that he’s sitting

[jlh2640]

Let’s just wait and see when Valamaki gets back in. He better run with it this time.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

Let’s just wait and see when Valamaki gets back in. He better run with it this time.

If the standard of staying in is the same as it is with Zadorov then he won't need to run with it, a slow crawl will suffice.

[N-E-B]

I honestly have no issues with Valimaki not playing. This isn't a case of a player being misused by the coaching staff (like some would argue for Bennett). This is a player who has ranged from mediocre to hot garbage this year. He simply hasn't performed at an acceptable level for the NHL and if he thinks he has he's completely out to lunch. I can't think of a single game he's played where he's stood out and looked great. I can say that for every other defenceman on the team, including Zadorov.

If he wants to play he's going to have to be a lot better. The talent is there. I need to see the work ethic and execution now.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

I agree with dobbles. Posts like those are used to shutdown discussion because the coach is smarter than everyone and knows best.

Truthfully Sutter is a brilliant coach but he isn't god and he isn't perfect. He makes mistakes so that argument doesn't hold for me. We have seen him make big player mistakes as a GM and like granteedev pointed out, that's the same person.

If Zadorov wasn't so horrible in first 2 games maybe it's Kylington who is sitting right now and Valimaki still in.

Not sure it shuts down discussion ... isn't it just a response to people that is somewhat expected?

The guy knows more than any of us. Not going to say he's smarter as there is all kinds of "smart" but he's boots on the ground and the rest of us are watching games and going about or lives.

If Valimaki is sitting I think we can assume it's one of the following ...

1. He hasn't been better than Zadorov in Sutter's mind.
2. He's a toss up but tough love will make him better in Sutter's mind.

Pretty sure the guy isn't just scratching superior players because of a God complex.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Appealing to authority is a bit of conversation ender.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

I agree with dobbles. Posts like those are used to shutdown discussion because the coach is smarter than everyone and knows best.

Truthfully Sutter is a brilliant coach but he isn't god and he isn't perfect. He makes mistakes so that argument doesn't hold for me. We have seen him make big player mistakes as a GM and like granteedev pointed out, that's the same person.

If Zadorov wasn't so horrible in first 2 games maybe it's Kylington who is sitting right now and Valimaki still in.

Sutter definitely has faults, and they largely revolve around his ability to choose personnel. He's an awful GM. Sutter is at his best when he's given a group of players that he did not choose and forced to work with them. He can make a few tweaks in lineups, but should not actually be in charge of choosing lineups. Sutter is also not great at developing skilled players.

I think Sutter has done a great job at getting the most out of Zadarov. But has he made the best decision in playing Zadarov so much in the first place? There's a reason "Sutter players" is a phrase. It's because he purposely plays a certain type of player at the expense of other players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Appealing to authority is a bit of conversation ender.

That's up to the person.

Assuming someone with a lot of experience, a history of success and complete access to the situation knows what he's doing is logic.

If you choose to have that end the conversation for you, that's your choice.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Whether the conversation continues is besides the point, it's a tactic used to end questioning.

[FBI]

My issue here is Zadorov is only around for a year.. Valimaki could be a mainstay for us for his entire career.. Let's give the kid a chance to work out some of his stuff for the long term gains..

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure it shuts down discussion ... isn't it just a response to people that is somewhat expected?

The guy knows more than any of us. Not going to say he's smarter as there is all kinds of "smart" but he's boots on the ground and the rest of us are watching games and going about or lives.

If Valimaki is sitting I think we can assume it's one of the following ...

1. He hasn't been better than Zadorov in Sutter's mind.
2. He's a toss up but tough love will make him better in Sutter's mind.

Pretty sure the guy isn't just scratching superior players because of a God complex.

I mean if I came into the game takes thread and any opinion you had of a player in the game I could just say "well Sutter knows best and he is still playing him so he must be doing good" I think that would be kind of annoying wouldn't you say? And probably not true.

There is a reason Sutter likes Zadorov more than Valimaki and we don't know that reason but that also doesn't mean it's the right reason or it is the right choice. Sutter has made mistakes before and he will again.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Appealing to authority is a bit of conversation ender.

It is a bit different, though, than a true appeal to authority, since there is such a massive gap in available, public information. In this case, Sutter does, in fact, have access to information that the rest of us can only guess at. It would be a much more valid argument if we all knew what was going on, and you still had posters claiming that the coach knows best. But that is not what is happening. Instead, you have posters saying, "We don't know what is going on, but given how Valimaki has played this season it seems likely that Sutter sees things we do not that legitimately contribute to this decision. With how the team is performing it is easy to give him the benefit of the doubt."

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Scroopy Noopers]

10 pages of discussion after a discussion ender…

[gvitaly]

Well while we're debating Zadorov vs. Valimaki, the Zadorov Gudbranson pairing has been among the top in the league in xGoals % (minimum of 75mins together).
Kylington - Tanev - 64.7%xG - 4th in the league
Zadorov - Gudbranson - 60%xG - 10th in the league
Hanifin - Andersson - 53.8%xG - 28th in the league
Valimaki - Gudbranson - 52.1%xG - 45th in the league

What's more the Zadorov - Gudbranson pairing is currently 4th in the league in expected goals against per 60. All things considered there's not much more you can ask for from your 3rd pairing.

So while both Valimaki and Zadorov played well with Gudbranson, as a pair it has been slightly better with Zadorov.

source

[saillias]

He probably needs AHL time but can't get it. He can't be re-assigned without passing through waivers anymore and is getting a little old to benefit from just watching and sitting at 23. He has far less pro experience than Andersson, Hanifin and Kylington had at his age.

For his part Brad probably didn't need to load up the roster with all 3 of Zadorov, Gudbranson and Stone.

Sutter I don't think can be blamed really. Zadorov has played a top 4 role in the NHL for years. It's really Kylington and Gudbranson being better than expected that is keeping Valimaki out of the lineup at this point. That said Sutter probably needs to pick a game and just put him and Stone at some point back in the lineup.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Appealing to authority is a bit of conversation ender.

Rejection of expert opinion is not exactly a winning argument. I go to a doctor if I’m sick, not a guy on the barstool next to me.

[Mr.Coffee]

To me the issue with the constant appeal to authority on CP debate is not whether or not it stifles discussion (it does)- it’s that such authorities have demonstrated over the Flames franchise history that they don’t actually know what they are doing in most instances.

Tough to argue with results.

If a doctor kept giving you advice and your issue wasn’t going away / fixing, would you continue to trust such opinion? That’s the crux of the issue with the appeals to authority.

Now in the case of Sutter it is funny, because he obviously knows what he is doing by and large. I think the proper rebuttal to complaints about appeal to authority is that a) literally nobody is perfect on Earth and b) everybody has biases and c) it needs to be the full body of work that needs to be criticized and at this stage of the season- tough to argue with Sutter in +90% of decisions so really, he’s the best authority to trust (hence results build trust).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Whether the conversation continues is besides the point, it's a tactic used to end questioning.

Call it whatever you want I guess.

Maybe if it's as simple as that to end questioning, then the questions weren't all that strong to begin with.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

To me the issue with the constant appeal to authority on CP debate is not whether or not it stifles discussion (it does)- it’s that such authorities have demonstrated over the Flames franchise history that they don’t actually know what they are doing in most instances.

Tough to argue with results.

If a doctor kept giving you advice and your issue wasn’t going away / fixing, would you continue to trust such opinion? That’s the crux of the issue with the appeals to authority.

Now in the case of Sutter it is funny, because he obviously knows what he is doing by and large. I think the proper rebuttal to complaints about appeal to authority is that a) literally nobody is perfect on Earth and b) everybody has biases and c) it needs to be the full body of work that needs to be criticized and at this stage of the season- tough to argue with Sutter in +90% of decisions so really, he’s the best authority to trust (hence results build trust).

Yes, it’s not appeal to authority. It’s appeal to Sutter’s experience.

Back to Valimaki - i was surprised when he was pulled out because I didn’t see much wrong in his game, though noting overly impressive either. But it’s not like he was clearly outshining Zadorov’s level of play in the last few games. Zadorov can’t pass at all, but he’s been decent in his own zone and doesn’t hurt much when they get into the offensive zone. Yes, his transition game sucks, though.

[saillias]

30 NHL coaches would probably do the same thing. Of course you play a guy with track record of NHL top 4 experience who is very solid defensively.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1460654898869989378

For your bottom pairing, why would you take that out of your lineup. I think it has to be injury to someone, or actually Gudbranson who comes out at this point for Valimaki to get back in the lineup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

I mean if I came into the game takes thread and any opinion you had of a player in the game I could just say "well Sutter knows best and he is still playing him so he must be doing good" I think that would be kind of annoying wouldn't you say? And probably not true.

There is a reason Sutter likes Zadorov more than Valimaki and we don't know that reason but that also doesn't mean it's the right reason or it is the right choice. Sutter has made mistakes before and he will again.

First off you can question anything you want in game takes.

However I doubt you'd see me stating anything in a game takes that suggests I know better than Sutter or anyone closer to the situation.

I probably wonder from time to time why a change hasn't been made after a loss or in back to backs but I certainly don't suggest I know better than anyone else.

I honestly don't think Sutter likes Zadorov completely, he sat 5 straight. I think he's waiting to see a pace and decision making change from Valimaki in practice before he puts him in, but that's just a guess.

Changes to dman number 6 aren't all that impactful in the grand scheme of things.