Jacob Markstrom (is better than Cam Talbot)

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It would?
We're 2-0 with Vladar in net

Maybe an average goalie loses the Penguins game. Or maybe they win it 4-3. Can't say. But maybe an average goalie wins the Nashville, Anaheim, Ducks games.

Flames dropped 11 goals on the rangers, no shutout needed.

Flames dropped 4 goals on the flyers, no shutout needed.

Red wings game was a Detroit team totally outclassed by Calgary.

A slightly different version of Flames team was 2nd in the NHL with 107 points a couple years ago with Smith lettinf in Beachballs half the year and David Rittich.

Enjoy the Markstrom shutouts. But don't pretend he is the primary reason for the Flames record.




QS are not a wierd stat. You can find me posting about them pretty deep into history.

I don't think we can actually say things like the bolded with any confidence. It's easy to look back and say "hey, we scored x amount so we could have let in x amount of goals and been fine" but what actually happens is that those goals change the composition, flow, and pressures within the game.

Shutouts play a part in blowouts, too. Great goaltender performances make a big difference overall, I think.

I don't think they beat NY 6-2 if a different goalie is in net and the first two goals are from NY.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't think we can actually say things like the bolded with any confidence. It's easy to look back and say "hey, we scored x amount so we could have let in x amount of goals and been fine" but what actually happens is that those goals change the composition, flow, and pressures within the game.

Shutouts play a part in blowouts, too. Great goaltender performances make a big difference overall, I think.

I don't think they beat NY 6-2 if a different goalie is in net and the first two goals are from NY.

Yep, most of these games are close for a long time...Markstrom allows the Flames to get the lead and then the other team has to press. Opening up and allowing the Flames more chances.

One goal can totally change a game


But IDK...if people aren't impressed by Markstrom now no goalie will ever impress you. We have Flames hater HNIC basically saying he has been the best goalie in the league thus far. Sample size is the only "argument" that even makes any sense.

He plays the rest of the year like this he is a Vezina finalist, probably wins. Pretty damn good for "not elite"

And are the Flames really that great? people who spent the entire summer telling me how terrible the Flames were especially on the back end are now saying the team is making Markstrom look great lol

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't think we can actually say things like the bolded with any confidence.

And I don't think we can say "Flames record with an average goalie would be worse" with any confidence.

Average goalies still make saves, you know.

The Flames are 5-1-3 with Markstrom in net, and 2-0 with Vladar in net.

They've scored a lot of goals all year, including getting off to a 3-0 lead over a really good Capitals team with Vladar in net.

You can theorize all you want, really.

But at the end of the day, you can't pretend Markstrom's less good games have been average. He's let in some goals that should be stopped. Those were all games where the Flames outplayed their opponent.

Why does Markstrom need to be annointed for five great games, as if his four subpar games never happened?

When you talk about a Vezina trophy, you'd talking about a guy like:

2021 MAF - .722 QS%
2020 Hellebuyck - .643 QS%
2019 Vasilevskiy - .642 QS%
2018 Rinne - .678
2017 Bobrovsky - .651


Winning the Vezina requires more than just shutouts when you're on. It requires that just about two out of every three starts is at least league-average.

It is ridiculous to be saying Markstrom has already been Vezina-calibre.

As Bingo noted - his GSAA is 7th in the league. That's freakin awesome! But a guy with 4 shutouts in 9 games should probably have a GSAA that's better than 7th in the league.

I would LOVE if Markstrom wins the Vezina, because it will mean he is playing better than he has these first nine games. He doesn't even need shutouts to do that.

[dino7c]

5-1-3 1.65 .942 4SO

IF he keeps pace with that the rest of the year he is winning the Vezina

downplay all you want

Every goalie lets in bad goals

1.98 .928 6SO

Won the Vezina last season

[genetic_phreek]

Personally I don't mind when a goalie has an average GAA and SV% when you're winning. To me that means our goalie isn't losing us games and the team in front of him is still playing good.

When you have a goalie with off-the-charts numbers, I get worried that our goalie may be masking (no pun intended) deficiencies in our team as a whole. ie: Kipper for many years.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And I don't think we can say "Flames record with an average goalie would be worse" with any confidence.

Average goalies still make saves, you know.

The Flames are 5-1-3 with Markstrom in net, and 2-0 with Vladar in net.

They've scored a lot of goals all year, including getting off to a 3-0 lead over a really good Capitals team with Vladar in net.

You can theorize all you want, really.

But at the end of the day, you can't pretend Markstrom's less good games have been average. He's let in some goals that should be stopped. Those were all games where the Flames outplayed their opponent.

Why does Markstrom need to be annointed for five great games, as if his four subpar games never happened?

When you talk about a Vezina trophy, you'd talking about a guy like:

2021 MAF - .722 QS%
2020 Hellebuyck - .643 QS%
2019 Vasilevskiy - .642 QS%
2018 Rinne - .678
2017 Bobrovsky - .651


Winning the Vezina requires more than just shutouts when you're on. It requires that just about two out of every three starts is at least league-average.

It is ridiculous to be saying Markstrom has already been Vezina-calibre.

As Bingo noted - his GSAA is 7th in the league. That's freakin awesome! But a guy with 4 shutouts in 9 games should probably have a GSAA that's better than 7th in the league.

I would LOVE if Markstrom wins the Vezina, because it will mean he is playing better than he has these first nine games. He doesn't even need shutouts to do that.

No it isn't.

If Markstrom finished the season on his current trajectory with 25+ shutouts and a SV% of .945 he's winning the Vezina without any conversation whatsoever.

He obviously won't, but of course he's been Vezina quality through the first 10.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And I don't think we can say "Flames record with an average goalie would be worse" with any confidence.

Average goalies still make saves, you know.

The Flames are 5-1-3 with Markstrom in net, and 2-0 with Vladar in net.

They've scored a lot of goals all year, including getting off to a 3-0 lead over a really good Capitals team with Vladar in net.

You can theorize all you want, really.

But at the end of the day, you can't pretend Markstrom's less good games have been average. He's let in some goals that should be stopped. Those were all games where the Flames outplayed their opponent.

Why does Markstrom need to be annointed for five great games, as if his four subpar games never happened?

When you talk about a Vezina trophy, you'd talking about a guy like:

2021 MAF - .722 QS%
2020 Hellebuyck - .643 QS%
2019 Vasilevskiy - .642 QS%
2018 Rinne - .678
2017 Bobrovsky - .651


Winning the Vezina requires more than just shutouts when you're on. It requires that just about two out of every three starts is at least league-average.

It is ridiculous to be saying Markstrom has already been Vezina-calibre.

As Bingo noted - his GSAA is 7th in the league. That's freakin awesome! But a guy with 4 shutouts in 9 games should probably have a GSAA that's better than 7th in the league.

I would LOVE if Markstrom wins the Vezina, because it will mean he is playing better than he has these first nine games. He doesn't even need shutouts to do that.

If you leave it at sample size you're spot on.

It's only been 9 starts.

But anyone that uses the sample size in saying Markstrom has been great to start the season is certainly more in the right than someone arguing against the fact that Markstrom has been very very good to start the season.

Are you just worried he doesn't keep it up (he probably won't to this degree) or do you just not like him?

Because it certainly is coming off a bit like the latter.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No it isn't.

If Markstrom finished the season on his current trajectory with 25+ shutouts and a SV% of .945 he's winning the Vezina without any conversation whatsoever.

He obviously won't, but of course he's been Vezina quality through the first 10.

Sorokin, Bobrovsky, Campbell, and Andersen have all been better - regardless of shutouts - because they've given their team a chance to win more often.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's November 8. Not late at all as it's way too early to declare anything.

My point was that it's too late to keep this thread from turning into what it was all along.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Sorokin, Bobrovsky, Campbell, and Andersen have all been better - regardless of shutouts - because they've given their team a chance to win more often.

And yet, they wouldn't win a Vezina over 25 shutouts.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Are you just worried he doesn't keep it up (he probably won't to this degree) or do you just not like him?

Because it certainly is coming off a bit like the latter.

I like Markstrom when he's on, and don't like him when he's not on. And he's not on often enough so far as a Flame.

I am hoping he can have fewer games like the ones vs Nashville and Anaheim, where the Flames deserved a better fate, even if it comes at the expense of shutouts, in games where letting in a goal isn't going to affect the win column.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Every year several goalies start well.

Bobrovsky, Andersen, Merzlikins, Sorokin, and even a guy who has been both over and underestimated, James Reimer, are all around .940, not to mention Jack Campbell’s .936

Then you’ve got guys like Vasilevskiy and Gibson you can count on, and Shesterkin

He was up around that .940 mark until the Flames destroyed the Rangers

Shesterkin is special. Other goalies and goalie coaches are taking note of the way he moves

https://www.nhl.com/news/new-york-ra...ve/c-327566288


It is a very exciting time for goaltending right now.

Markstrom has been delightful. He has done what has been asked but he has undeniably been the beneficiary of Darryl’s system and the Flames’ execution.

But the coronation here is early, presumptuous, and homerific . Lots of really good goalies out there right now. As I say, an exciting time

Definitely more worthwhile investment of time than trying to argue something based on a 10 game sample which is a career outlier (but also reasonably explainable)

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I like Markstrom when he's on, and don't like him when he's not on. And he's not on often enough so far as a Flame.

I am hoping he can have fewer games like the ones vs Nashville and Anaheim, where the Flames deserved a better fate, even if it comes at the expense of shutouts, in games where letting in a goal isn't going to affect the win column.

He wasn't the problem in either of those games though.

He's a goalie. They all give up softies once in a while, and they all get out played by their opposition.

Even using the RBS stat you like he has none.

You're answer didn't do a great job of convincing me you like the player. I mean what goalie do you like when he's not on?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He wasn't the problem in either of those games though.

He's a goalie. They all give up softies once in a while, and they all get out played by their opposition.

Even using the RBS stat you like he has none.

You're answer didn't do a great job of convincing me you like the player. I mean what goalie do you like when he's not on?

Let me put it like this:

I'm happy with Markstrom's start.

But I think it's ridiculous to think he's been the best goalie in the league. Others have been better so far.

I think Markstrom has earned his 6M salary so far after 9 starts. That's the ninth highest paid goalie, and he's been at least good enough to earn his salary. He hasn't been a "steal" especially since everyone is conveniently forgetting all of last season.

I think Markstrom is good enough.

I don't think there are many playoff series we'd go into where I'd say "Markstrom will be the difference in this series".

Yet somehow a certain poster keeps throwing a tantrum out of me comparing Markstrom to a Chris Osgood.

As if Osgood didn't win multiple Stanley Cups as a starter.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Sorokin, Bobrovsky, Campbell, and Andersen have all been better - regardless of shutouts - because they've given their team a chance to win more often.

You find the ONE stat that suits your argument and put it at the top

Markstrom would win in a landslide if his pro-rated numbers were the final numbers.

To argue he wouldn't is laughable

He shouldn't be penalized because his team has scored a lot

[djsFlames]

I think he will be a finalist

Behind Darryl's system? Feels almost automatic at this point.

I love how the system is geared towards giving marky mainly the type of shots he will be effective in stopping.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Let me put it like this:

I'm happy with Markstrom's start.

But I think it's ridiculous to think he's been the best goalie in the league. Others have been better so far.

I think Markstrom has earned his 6M salary so far after 9 starts. That's the ninth highest paid goalie, and he's been at least good enough to earn his salary. He hasn't been a "steal" especially since everyone is conveniently forgetting all of last season.

I think Markstrom is good enough.

I don't think there are many playoff series we'd go into where I'd say "Markstrom will be the difference in this series".

Yet somehow a certain poster keeps throwing a tantrum out of me comparing Markstrom to a Chris Osgood.

As if Osgood didn't win multiple Stanley Cups as a starter.

Honestly I find both extremes in this argument kind of silly.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dino7c

You find the ONE stat that suits your argument and put it at the top

Markstrom would win in a landslide if his pro-rated numbers were the final numbers.

To argue he wouldn't is laughable

He shouldn't be penalized because his team has scored a lot

Okay, let's forget about QS% for a second

Bobrovsky has posted a .948 while being 6-0-0
Markstrom has posted a .945 while being 5-1-3

i suppose Bobrovsky could be penalized for having played fewer games, since Spencer Knight has been a solid backup. But games played is out of his control.

What he HAS done is not lose a single damn game.

Yet you think Markstrom deserves a Best Goalie trophy over him if both guys maintain their performance.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Okay, let's forget about QS% for a second

Bobrovsky has posted a .948 while being 6-0-0
Markstrom has posted a .945 while being 5-1-3

i suppose Bobrovsky could be penalized for having played fewer games, since Spencer Knight has been a solid backup. But games played is out of his control.

What he HAS done is not lose a single damn game.

Yet you think Markstrom deserves a Best Goalie trophy over him if both guys maintain their performance.

In this scenario Markstrom smashes the SO record in the over 100 year old league.

Yes he wins obviously

You are also suggesting the Flames are equal to the Panthers as a team

One goal would.have beaten the Ducks, Preds, and Stars. There were plenty of chances

[Kipper_3434]

I'm gonna say something that makes me feel conflicted. Markstroms current play reminds me of prime Luongo. Otherworldly every other game, with mixed results in other games. I hope he doesn't choke like 7uongo when the games get more important. Stylistically I see many similarities as well.