Foundation (Spoilers)

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Shazam

This episode shat on Asimov's face. Disgusting, and went against everything Asimov ever stood for.

I bailed on this show so spoil the shat out of it. How exactly?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So The Invictus is full on plagiarism of Event Horizon. The bridge has the same cross-shaped window, the entire ship looks just like the jump drive to hell.

Then we also have a rip-off of Dune where computers cannot navigate space, but you need a human brain so specialized living space navigators have to plug into the ship to plot jump points.

Salvor has the abilities of Domino from Deadpool where luck/probability always go her way for no rational reason.

Gaal bails because she has a temper tantrum and has had enough of everything, deciding its better to take a 130 year journey in a pod back to her backwards religious planet rather than go to Hari's homeworld. Oh also, she has full on prescient abilities down to knowing the split second to block a micro asteroid moving faster than a bullet from hitting her, again for no rational reason whatsoever.

Lee Pace is holding the show on his shoulders. Brother day's political moves as and moral ambiguity is the only thing really worth watching. The whole Cleon Genetic dynasty doesn't exist in the books. It's all a fabrication for this show.

The computers needing humans to do hyperspace calculations is a foundation book thing so predates dune by quite a few years.

Doesn’t make the series less terrible.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by zamler

I bailed on this show so spoil the shat out of it. How exactly?

The robot killed.

Like why even call this stupid show Foundation if they're going to do stuff like that.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The robot killed.

Like why even call this stupid show Foundation if they're going to do stuff like that.

Ya, the only loophole I could think of is that she is Empire's robot, and seems to not have a choice. Perhaps programming override?


Most of the stuff they've written is their own ideas, not based on stories from the books. And they aren't good stories.

[Shazam]

In the Asimov universe, robots could never be programmed to kill. They would die. The three laws were ingrained into their brains and could not be overridden.

Ah well. I guess that goes the zeroth law, which is the whole goddamned point of Foundation.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The robot killed.

Wow that's messed up.

[FireGilbert]

It's frustrating because there was already a great story, the TV writers just needed to sort our the narrative structure and add character development. I thought the first few episodes succeeded, setting up Gaal as the long term narrator and fleshing out Hardin and the Empire, but it's been all over the place since then. I'm holding out hope for a big end of season twist that makes sense of it all and ties back to the books.

One of the joys of the books is that the big twists, up until a certain character is introduced, are that everything is going to plan. It's like the TV writers thought this was too boring and decided to introduce all the drama and physic stuff right off the bat.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

So The Invictus is full on plagiarism of Event Horizon. The bridge has the same cross-shaped window, the entire ship looks just like the jump drive to hell.

the spinning concentric circles thing reminds me of the launchpad from Contact. I don't know if that was an inspiration/plagiarism thing between Sagan and Asimov and/or the films.

Originally Posted by Shazam

In the Asimov universe, robots could never be programmed to kill. They would die. The three laws were ingrained into their brains and could not be overridden.

First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

didn't they pretty much break this rule by like episode 2 or something? Demerzel was leading the goon squad that shot up the lab (?) when they were investigating the Star Bridge bombing. if she's been the Empire's right hand muscle for centuries, then she's probably got like thousands of kills under her belt.

anyhow the Cleon stuff continues to be so much better than the other stories with the two Chosen Ones. even then, they sort of ruin the ending by assuming the audience is dumb as rocks, and explicitly showing that Brother Day didn't experience a salt cave vision. because it wasn't obvious enough when Demerzel slapped him around at dinner.

Gaal is annoying cause she does nothing but whine now (and is gone for another century...yay?). I know it's not the same series or character, but we had Naomi from Expanse stuck on a ship she couldn't control for like half of last season, and she used sheer force of will to fix an unresolvable situation. that's a protagonist I can get behind, not prime number Jedi crybaby.

Grand Huntress is equally annoying because her entire performance consists of alternating between scowl and s--- eating grin. this should be someone we almost sympathize with since her planet got half bombed out of existence but no, she sucks and I just want her entire race to die. also, the weapons they used against Anacreon looked like each hit was Castle Bravo sized or bigger, yet she just came out looking like Two-Face Lite while her friend/brother was utterly vaporized 50 meters away.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

the spinning concentric circles thing reminds me of the launchpad from Contact. I don't know if that was an inspiration/plagiarism thing between Sagan and Asimov and/or the films.



First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

didn't they pretty much break this rule by like episode 2 or something? Demerzel was leading the goon squad that shot up the lab (?) when they were investigating the Star Bridge bombing. if she's been the Empire's right hand muscle for centuries, then she's probably got like thousands of kills under her belt.

anyhow the Cleon stuff continues to be so much better than the other stories with the two Chosen Ones. even then, they sort of ruin the ending by assuming the audience is dumb as rocks, and explicitly showing that Brother Day didn't experience a salt cave vision. because it wasn't obvious enough when Demerzel slapped him around at dinner.

Gaal is annoying cause she does nothing but whine now (and is gone for another century...yay?). I know it's not the same series or character, but we had Naomi from Expanse stuck on a ship she couldn't control for like half of last season, and she used sheer force of will to fix an unresolvable situation. that's a protagonist I can get behind, not prime number Jedi crybaby.

Grand Huntress is equally annoying because her entire performance consists of alternating between scowl and s--- eating grin. this should be someone we almost sympathize with since her planet got half bombed out of existence but no, she sucks and I just want her entire race to die. also, the weapons they used against Anacreon looked like each hit was Castle Bravo sized or bigger, yet she just came out looking like Two-Face Lite while her friend/brother was utterly vaporized 50 meters away.

I am trying to like this show and I'm hoping that its just taking some time to get its feet under it and get back to the material.

But Gaal? I'm sorry, I have no problems turning that character into a woman, but you have to make her a problem solver. The world doesnt need more Reys or Michael Burnhams.

She is likely going to be one of your principle characters, you'd better make the audience feel something about her other than sheer annoyance. We'd better love, respect and/or fear her.

If she's just going to whine all the time then.....I hate to say it Harry but fire her out of the airlock ASAP.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

Brother Day is lugging this show on his back.

And I'm not sure he can keep doing it for much longer...

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

didn't they pretty much break this rule by like episode 2 or something? Demerzel was leading the goon squad that shot up the lab (?) when they were investigating the Star Bridge bombing. if she's been the Empire's right hand muscle for centuries, then she's probably got like thousands of kills under her belt.

anyhow the Cleon stuff continues to be so much better than the other stories with the two Chosen Ones. even then, they sort of ruin the ending by assuming the audience is dumb as rocks, and explicitly showing that Brother Day didn't experience a salt cave vision. because it wasn't obvious enough when Demerzel slapped him around at dinner.

In episode 2, we didn't yet know she was a robot, she just seemed like their right hand woman and assassin to the Empire.

Then they revealed she was a robot later and I had completely forgotten this. Thank you.

[GGG]

The mere fact robots exist in foundation is a slap in the face to Asimov’s entire point.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GGG

The mere fact robots exist in foundation is a slap in the face to Asimov’s entire point.

My memory is a little hazy but I think Demerzel is an original character, although I think it took a while before you knew he was a robot.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GGG

The mere fact robots exist in foundation is a slap in the face to Asimov’s entire point.

Someone didn't read Foundation and Earf.

Originally Posted by Locke

My memory is a little hazy but I think Demerzel is an original character, although I think it took a while before you knew he was a robot.

Demerzel is Olivaw. Demerzel is in the books but very briefly.

[Locke]

Right! Daneel!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Someone didn't read Foundation and Earf.

Major book spoilers

Spoiler!

That’s the point. Asimov’s thesis was Human beings need to be constantly striving forward. The empire died because it wasn’t moving forward and stagnated. Then you go back to the Robot books and the Spcer worlds stagnate and die as a result of Robots ever increasing the measure time of man. Olivaw/Giskard had to nuke the Earth in order to correct the problem.

So putting any Robot other than R Daniel Olivaw is missing the whole point of about 10 books. Now I suppose that prelude and forward through them into the empire side but the actual core foundation series doesn’t have them until the end.

Edit: seeing Lockes post above I need to reread prelude and forward

[Shazam]

Having Demerzel is fine since yeah, it really is the Last Robot evah, but turning it into a killer is stupid.

[accord1999]

Doesn't an interpretation of the Zeroth Law allow harming or even killing? The "Good of the Many outweighing the Good of the Few?"

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by GGG

Major book spoilers

Spoiler!

That’s the point. Asimov’s thesis was Human beings need to be constantly striving forward. The empire died because it wasn’t moving forward and stagnated. Then you go back to the Robot books and the Spcer worlds stagnate and die as a result of Robots ever increasing the measure time of man. Olivaw/Giskard had to nuke the Earth in order to correct the problem.

Spoiler!

But that seems to be arguably in conflict with Olivaw's final goal, Galaxia which needs a collective and predictable humanity.

It's interesting with the concurrent discussion with Dune that Herbert went with the exact opposite as the ideal path for humanity, decentralization and unpredictability.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Doesn't an interpretation of the Zeroth Law allow harming or even killing? The "Good of the Many outweighing the Good of the Few?"

As I recall, yes. And I cant remember but wasnt it also deemed that Demerzal couldnt interpret that law very well?

The thing about psychohistory is that certain events and circumstances elicit certain reactions, but these reactions flux and change over different periods of time.